Comments on: Sherk Steroid Ruling Captures Worst of Both Worlds http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/ Your Destination for Insider MMA News and Opinion Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:47:08 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: screwface http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7582 screwface Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:26:36 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7582 lol, dizzle that was funny as hell, thank you. if the needle doesnt fit u must acquit. but truthfully the dude is guilty as hell, and lost all respect with the majority of fans. no way to get that kind of false positive. they dont exactly put steroids in his baby food or centrum vitamin pack. shouldve been a harsher punishment because thanks to guys like him and baroni , all the big guys who actually work hard to get their size and stamina up are now gonna be subject to gossip and rumor with each victory. should be 1 rule if your caught juicin, you lose ability to fight forever period. this sends a bad message to future mma stars and the fans. if your gonna slap on the wrist for steroids then fu*k it, just give the guys swords and throw lions in the cage too. i have no respect for royce gracie anymore either, couldnt find away to beat sakuraba the gracie killer without roids. any1 who defends steroid use and the whole "false positive" conspiracy can eat a fat one ;) its a black mark on sports and real athletes who train hard naturally to prove whos really best. lol, dizzle that was funny as hell, thank you. if the needle doesnt fit u must acquit. but truthfully the dude is guilty as hell, and lost all respect with the majority of fans. no way to get that kind of false positive. they dont exactly put steroids in his baby food or centrum vitamin pack. shouldve been a harsher punishment because thanks to guys like him and baroni , all the big guys who actually work hard to get their size and stamina up are now gonna be subject to gossip and rumor with each victory. should be 1 rule if your caught juicin, you lose ability to fight forever period. this sends a bad message to future mma stars and the fans. if your gonna slap on the wrist for steroids then fu*k it, just give the guys swords and throw lions in the cage too. i have no respect for royce gracie anymore either, couldnt find away to beat sakuraba the gracie killer without roids. any1 who defends steroid use and the whole “false positive” conspiracy can eat a fat one ;) its a black mark on sports and real athletes who train hard naturally to prove whos really best.

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]]> By: Leland Roling http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7580 Leland Roling Wed, 05 Dec 2007 21:39:37 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7580 There are some other topics about this whole ordeal that are odd. First off, if the CSAC had a process such as WADA's process, the case would have been thrown out because the chain of custody was apparently not complete and there were periods where the sample was documented as being in a certain person's hand, etc. Secondly, there are studies indicating unstable urine can cause positives. Can they cause gains to 12 ng/mL? Most studies don't specifically indicate that. Also, how can you tell the difference? You'd have to test a sample IMMEDIATELY after it was taken in order to stop that possibility. They don't do that currently, so we would never know if it was unstable or not. It's a tough process that requires more research. There is one glaring opinion I want to make, the CSAC needs to be improved dramatically, and the testing process throughout the WORLD needs to be researched and upgraded. People are quick to point at Quest, but the fact is, they test just like everyone else. There are some other topics about this whole ordeal that are odd.

First off, if the CSAC had a process such as WADA’s process, the case would have been thrown out because the chain of custody was apparently not complete and there were periods where the sample was documented as being in a certain person’s hand, etc.

Secondly, there are studies indicating unstable urine can cause positives. Can they cause gains to 12 ng/mL? Most studies don’t specifically indicate that. Also, how can you tell the difference? You’d have to test a sample IMMEDIATELY after it was taken in order to stop that possibility. They don’t do that currently, so we would never know if it was unstable or not. It’s a tough process that requires more research.

There is one glaring opinion I want to make, the CSAC needs to be improved dramatically, and the testing process throughout the WORLD needs to be researched and upgraded. People are quick to point at Quest, but the fact is, they test just like everyone else.

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]]> By: Dizzle http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7574 Dizzle Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:19:31 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7574 Get Sherk a break...he slipped and fell on a cycle of steroids. This stuff happens all the time...expecially in Pro Wrestling. Get Sherk a break…he slipped and fell on a cycle of steroids. This stuff happens all the time…expecially in Pro Wrestling.

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]]> By: garth http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7570 garth Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:56:27 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7570 # 18 Leland Roling wins The "his nandralone levels were normal" argument is purely and completely wrong. # 18 Leland Roling wins
The “his nandralone levels were normal” argument is purely and completely wrong.

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]]> By: groda http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7559 groda Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:42:26 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7559 The way Sherk is fighting makes me think he is guilty. I agree the CSAC is a mess and that is the reason they make strange decisions. It is quite clear that Sherk should be either cleared and not suspended or found in breach of the rules and have to serve the full suspension. One or the other, not this stupid in between shit. If the CSAC realizes there are problems the only reasonable thing to do is to clear him, nothing I've seen indicates that they see any problems with their testing. I haven't seen the evidence, that goes without saying and is obvious to everyone. Still, people keep saying there are problems with the testing and that might be true, but the relevant fact is that the CSAC does not think so and it is the ultimate authority, not I, as Slakdawg so insightfully points out. It seems that people think that the CSAC knows about flawed tests but still suspends people in spite of this knowledge. But they only do it "halfway" because they know the tests are bad. This makes no sense to me. I think they are just a bunch of people without expertise in the area they are charged with overseeing. It also seems they are working without a strict set of guidelines regarding process and decisions. This gives them plenty of chances to fuck up, and they do. "I dont think the CSAC is required to disclose why they do or do not reduce suspensions." I don't know if they are, but they sure as hell should be. The decisions should be public record and subject to strict guidelines and inspection. It should not be up to the whims of the board members whether one is suspended or not. It should not be a lottery, which is the impression I get. Suspensions should only be reduced for unambiguous, previously defined, reasons. Predictability is a basic feature of the rule of law, it should be in the dealings of the CSAC as well, even though the CSAC is not a court of law. Is Sherk guilty? I don't know. All I know is that the CSAC is a mess and they should either suspend Sherk for the full year or nor suspend him at all. You cannot be half guilty. The way Sherk is fighting makes me think he is guilty.

I agree the CSAC is a mess and that is the reason they make strange decisions. It is quite clear that Sherk should be either cleared and not suspended or found in breach of the rules and have to serve the full suspension. One or the other, not this stupid in between shit.

If the CSAC realizes there are problems the only reasonable thing to do is to clear him, nothing I’ve seen indicates that they see any problems with their testing.

I haven’t seen the evidence, that goes without saying and is obvious to everyone. Still, people keep saying there are problems with the testing and that might be true, but the relevant fact is that the CSAC does not think so and it is the ultimate authority, not I, as Slakdawg so insightfully points out.

It seems that people think that the CSAC knows about flawed tests but still suspends people in spite of this knowledge. But they only do it “halfway” because they know the tests are bad.

This makes no sense to me. I think they are just a bunch of people without expertise in the area they are charged with overseeing. It also seems they are working without a strict set of guidelines regarding process and decisions. This gives them plenty of chances to fuck up, and they do.

“I dont think the CSAC is required to disclose why they do or do not reduce suspensions.”

I don’t know if they are, but they sure as hell should be. The decisions should be public record and subject to strict guidelines and inspection. It should not be up to the whims of the board members whether one is suspended or not. It should not be a lottery, which is the impression I get. Suspensions should only be reduced for unambiguous, previously defined, reasons.

Predictability is a basic feature of the rule of law, it should be in the dealings of the CSAC as well, even though the CSAC is not a court of law.

Is Sherk guilty? I don’t know. All I know is that the CSAC is a mess and they should either suspend Sherk for the full year or nor suspend him at all. You cannot be half guilty.

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]]> By: Leland Roling http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7551 Leland Roling Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:36:23 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7551 Terrible inaccuracies by some of the comments here. Use Google and research normal levels of Nandrolone in non-steroid using users. Look at the cycling charts. Check out the studies done in Nagano, and the studies done independently. Read up on the CSAC and research ALL of their rulings as I have done in the last few months. You will see that: A. There have been varying studies with horrible opposite sample sizes, one suggesting it's possible to "easily" hit 10 ng/mL. There are other studies that are broad that suggest it is very hard to reach even 1 ng/mL. B. It is possible to have supplements that taint your body. WADA and the IOC indicate it is close to 20% of over the counter supplements in the U.S. that can false positive your results. Sherk tested his supplements AFTER the fact, but he came up with nothing related to Nandrolone, only Andro. C. Mistiming a cycle by a day could have produced 12 ng/mL. Also, urine testing isn't terrible inaccurate. You wouldn't be off by say 10 ng/mL, and it's been proven in testing that the accuracy won't be off by a huge amount. Urinanalysis is however not the best option. D. The CSAC uses one of the most respected labs in the United States. Ken Pavia used a lab that was a third-party with limited credibility. Pavia may have been correct, but it wasn't going to hold weight with the lab that was used. E. The CSAC's disciplinary decisions are atrocious. They've let off guys who admittedly taken 3 different steroids and stated they didn't know without any evidence. What did you expect? Sherk is either guilty and it should have been upheld, or in a very rare instant, he false positived at a high level due to some circumstance. Either there needs to be testing to improve accuracy, or new studies to find out what the hell is happening. One thing is for sure, the CSAC needs to restructure their disciplinary actions. Terrible inaccuracies by some of the comments here. Use Google and research normal levels of Nandrolone in non-steroid using users. Look at the cycling charts. Check out the studies done in Nagano, and the studies done independently. Read up on the CSAC and research ALL of their rulings as I have done in the last few months.

You will see that:

A. There have been varying studies with horrible opposite sample sizes, one suggesting it’s possible to “easily” hit 10 ng/mL. There are other studies that are broad that suggest it is very hard to reach even 1 ng/mL.

B. It is possible to have supplements that taint your body. WADA and the IOC indicate it is close to 20% of over the counter supplements in the U.S. that can false positive your results. Sherk tested his supplements AFTER the fact, but he came up with nothing related to Nandrolone, only Andro.

C. Mistiming a cycle by a day could have produced 12 ng/mL. Also, urine testing isn’t terrible inaccurate. You wouldn’t be off by say 10 ng/mL, and it’s been proven in testing that the accuracy won’t be off by a huge amount. Urinanalysis is however not the best option.

D. The CSAC uses one of the most respected labs in the United States. Ken Pavia used a lab that was a third-party with limited credibility. Pavia may have been correct, but it wasn’t going to hold weight with the lab that was used.

E. The CSAC’s disciplinary decisions are atrocious. They’ve let off guys who admittedly taken 3 different steroids and stated they didn’t know without any evidence. What did you expect?

Sherk is either guilty and it should have been upheld, or in a very rare instant, he false positived at a high level due to some circumstance. Either there needs to be testing to improve accuracy, or new studies to find out what the hell is happening. One thing is for sure, the CSAC needs to restructure their disciplinary actions.

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]]> By: Slakdawg http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7545 Slakdawg Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:41:32 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7545 Groda, you keep saying that "if, indeed, there were problems with the testing Baroni and Sherk should not have been suspended at all." The key word there is "should." If the process is broken, then no, there should not have been a suspension. That doesnt mean there wont be one though. The CSAC has been a mess for some time. And just because they didnt inform you as to the reason for the reduced suspension doesnt mean they didnt have reason to reduce it. I dont think the CSAC is required to disclose why they do or do not reduce suspensions. Now, if YOU are the deciding authority on what suspensions are upheld, reduced, or overturned then it would make sense to provide you with justification as to their decisions. But just because you dont see their justification is irrelivent. I dont think you sat through the hearings and examined every piece of evidence in the matter. I think Ben is right. Either Sherk is guilty and deserves the year suspension or he isnt and he shouldnt be suspended at all. The way Sherk is fighting this makes me think he may not be guilty. I dont remember anyone else going to these lengths to prove his innocence in a drug testing matter (Floyd Landis aside). Groda, you keep saying that “if, indeed, there were problems with the testing Baroni and Sherk should not have been suspended at all.” The key word there is “should.” If the process is broken, then no, there should not have been a suspension. That doesnt mean there wont be one though. The CSAC has been a mess for some time. And just because they didnt inform you as to the reason for the reduced suspension doesnt mean they didnt have reason to reduce it. I dont think the CSAC is required to disclose why they do or do not reduce suspensions. Now, if YOU are the deciding authority on what suspensions are upheld, reduced, or overturned then it would make sense to provide you with justification as to their decisions. But just because you dont see their justification is irrelivent. I dont think you sat through the hearings and examined every piece of evidence in the matter. I think Ben is right. Either Sherk is guilty and deserves the year suspension or he isnt and he shouldnt be suspended at all. The way Sherk is fighting this makes me think he may not be guilty. I dont remember anyone else going to these lengths to prove his innocence in a drug testing matter (Floyd Landis aside).

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]]> By: groda http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7538 groda Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:49:41 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7538 I don't think they're nice. I think they are idiots. They hand out reduced sentences without, it seems to me, justification. Baroni also made a big stink but he had no case. They still reduced his sentence, why? I have heard no good explanation, if, indeed, there were problems with the testing Baroni and Sherk should not have been suspended at all. Toney had his suspension reduced without making any arguments beyond name-calling. Reduced sentences are not given based on flawed testing. If the procedures were flawed there should be no suspension at all. What fight? The CSAC is the ultimate authority in this case, there is no further appeal. If Sherk wants to file a lawsuit in a court of law he can do so no matter what the CSAC said yesterday. That is a whole different matter. I don’t think they’re nice. I think they are idiots. They hand out reduced sentences without, it seems to me, justification.

Baroni also made a big stink but he had no case. They still reduced his sentence, why? I have heard no good explanation, if, indeed, there were problems with the testing Baroni and Sherk should not have been suspended at all.

Toney had his suspension reduced without making any arguments beyond name-calling.

Reduced sentences are not given based on flawed testing. If the procedures were flawed there should be no suspension at all.

What fight? The CSAC is the ultimate authority in this case, there is no further appeal. If Sherk wants to file a lawsuit in a court of law he can do so no matter what the CSAC said yesterday. That is a whole different matter.

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]]> By: HexRei http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7537 HexRei Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:19:37 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7537 To clarify, (as I had mistakenly thought I had done originally) it was simply because they didn't want to fight expensive lawyers with legitimate footholds in a flawed testing procedure. But then again, maybe the CSAC was just trying to be nice. I suppose that's always possible. To clarify, (as I had mistakenly thought I had done originally) it was simply because they didn’t want to fight expensive lawyers with legitimate footholds in a flawed testing procedure.

But then again, maybe the CSAC was just trying to be nice. I suppose that’s always possible.

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]]> By: HexRei http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-7536 HexRei Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:18:18 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/12/05/sherk-steroid-ruling-captures-worst-of-both-worlds/#comment-7536 Groda, It's the same reason that Baroni and Sherk both had their sanctions reduced. You can postulate other reasons but the issues with the testing systems are the only arguable contentions made by either fighter, and each had similar reductions in sanction length. Groda,
It’s the same reason that Baroni and Sherk both had their sanctions reduced. You can postulate other reasons but the issues with the testing systems are the only arguable contentions made by either fighter, and each had similar reductions in sanction length.

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