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Open Discussion: Should Vets Get More Respect from Referees?

On the heels of namely the Karo Parisyan stoppage last night I’ve had a couple of arguments with people that I’d like some feedback on. Namely, should veteran fighters get extra credit when it comes to stoppages?

Let me start by saying I don’t like Karo Parisyan. At all. I only state this as to show this has nothing to do with bias or the fights last night in particular.

Should a veteran fighter who has put so much time in and has so much experience get an extra second before a stoppage than a rookie fighter? This is not unprecedented, look at how stars are treated in all sports. If you so much as smiled at Michael Jordan you were called for a foul. Randy Moss shoves off his defender on almost every pass play. God forbid you so much as touch Peyton Manning or Tom Brady…. but feel free to brutally helmet-to-helmet David Carr, no one will care. And regardless of what you think, the strike zone for Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Theriot are not the same size.

But isn’t that good? That’s what makes stars and gives us more entertaining games or fights. Why shouldn’t a grizzled veteran like Matt Hughes or Minotauro Nogueira get that extra shot to make SURE they’re out? They’ve put in years of work, had dozens of fights, they’ve held multiple titles. This is their career, their goal, their livelihood. I have a feeling if you asked them whether they’d be willing to take one extra unnecessary shot or risk a fight behind called too early they’d take A.

Look, no one is asking for a Yoshida/Thompson murder match. Speaking of which that referee still needs to be charged. Just give these guys that have given so much to the sport the respect of making sure they’re out before you say they are prematurely. Look at Herring/Nogueira. That fight could have easily been called after the Herring kick but wasn’t. Had the ref hopped in to save Nog he wouldn’t have gotten the title shot. He wouldn’t be UFC Heavyweight Champion. All because a referee wanted to save him from a situation where he didn’t need to be saved. Think how the entire landscape of MMA would have changed based on that one decision. No discussing if Nog is the best heavyweight. There would be more PRIDE bashing. We’d go from UFC Champion Nog to “guy that couldn’t even beat Heath Herring.”

I know reffing this sport is incredibly difficult and I respect the decisions those guys have to make on a daily basis. But isn’t that why other sports began using instant replay? So I’m asking you, should veterans get that extra respect to let them fight out of it?

64 COMMENTS
  • Jiu-Jitsu Guy says:

    “Let me start by saying I don’t like Karo Parisyan. At all.”

    Why???? What did he do to you? Explain or get no respect.

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  • Davey D says:

    Michael, timing is everything right? I am fan of Karo’s and think that his loss last night was just. He should’ve fought Jon Fitch when he had the chance. Fitch already had a win over Alves and had Karo been able to win against Fitch, a Title shot could’ve been in line as soon as August.

    My favorite fighter is Minotauro and I almost shit my pants when Herring landed that kick. Afterwards, Heath didn’t exactly go in for the kill. Herb Dean knew Nog’ was down but not out. Had Heath done differently then he could’ve very well defeated one of the all time great’s but he didn’t. He wanted no part of Minotauro’s ground game even with him being half-KO’d.
    Timing is everything.

    Also, that part you wrote about someone getting a foul if they smiled at Michael Jordan was funny as hell.

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  • dumbOut! says:

    My sentiments exactly! Some of the greatest victories in combat sports have been when a fighter comes back from the brink of defeat to win. Arturro Gatti anyone? Minotauro? On the other hand I dont want to see these guys starting to get seriously injured, and have brain damage like so many boxers have happen. A very thin line, and I dont envy the ref’s position.

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  • Kelvin says:

    When it comes to veterans…I think the ref’s should have a good idea of how much punishment they can take…or have taken in the past and still kept fighting…I do think Karo deserved the benefit of the doubt last night considering what was on the line for him.

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  • Reaser says:

    I hate the “star” treatment in other sports, I don’t think its so much refs giving a vet extra calls, though your Michael Jordan line was classic, I think it had just as much to do with everyone thinking, he missed a shot?!?! He had to have been fouled…

    As for Karo, he shouldn’t have avoided Fitch, got what he deserved, I think both “questionable” stoppages from last night were fine, maybe a half second to early. Your making a good point, but why not take it a step further and say across the board, vet or popular fighter or not, tell the refs when your going to stop a fight take an extra second to think about it, they aren’t supposed to hesitate because of fighters safety and all, but like you said, if you ask the fighters whether they’d take one more punch to make sure they are out or have the ref see a hard shot and just assume and jump in and stop the fight they’d choose taking one more hit…

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  • canuck says:

    seems to me it’s better if everyone gets the same treatment. doing it any other way introduces arbitrary grey areas. we’ll see guys saying “ok i’ve had 17 fights, i should be able to take a few extra before they stop it”) that’s ridiculous. the rules (for the most part) are the rules.
    the sport’s pretty safe – let’s keep it that way.

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  • Smilez says:

    He should of taken the fight with fitch…

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  • dedstrk says:

    I can see your point and agree with it in the sense that a vet should possibly get an extra shot or two, but the problem I have with that and comparing it to the other sports is that in MMA one extra shot is all it takes to permanently damage someone. I’m not a fan of Karo either but just imagine if he would have taken 6 or 7 unanswered shots, instead of the 4, and one of the last three did permanent damage. The refs are there to control the fight and look out for the fighters. After the recent deaths in the sport I’m glad that they err on the side of caution.

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  • fiveouncesofpainReader says:

    I disagree. Each fighter in a match should be subjected to the same rules, regardless of referee or experience.

    I do not have a problem with changing the KO threshold based on league caliber. The KO threshold for the UFC would be higher than the KO threshold for a rinky dink league. In this instance, both fighters in any particular fight would have the same rules applied to them.

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  • Jo says:

    I think the referees do a pretty good job. If you are not defending your self such as Alexander and Karo then there is no point in getting more beat up. Sure 8 seconds is a short fight but it was all that was needed. Sucks to loose but only 1 walks out a winner.

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  • Rich S. says:

    i’ll agree w/ the first part of #3.. but not the second.. because Alves had a lot on the line too.. he’s working his way up in the title contention ranks.. and you know how dramatically he could [and did] go up after a victory over karo..

    but,

    refs should know how much abuse the fighter can take.. i mean, they shouldn’t give vets the edge or anything.. but.. like the nog/herring fight..that ref must of known that Nog is always getting his ass beat in the beggining of his fights.. always.. but he always pulls out the “W’s” too.. the ref did his homework or something.. and in the nog/sylvia fight.. he got sent straight to the ground w/ a punch.. and then pummeled.. and from that point on.. he was just getting knocked silly.. but he came back and won by guillotine.. the ref’s should know when the fighter is bad under pressure, and when the fighter can take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’..

    i STILL feel that the decision to stop the karo fight was perfectly fine.. it could have gone a few seconds more.. but, karo would’ve still been taking abuse from that position.. i mean, he got hit with a knee, he probably didn’t even know where he was after that, and then he had Alves punching him in the head from a dominant position.. things weren’t going to get much better for him.. and some might say “well, he jumped right up after the fight” well, that’s because he was no longer getting hit in the face!

    as for the houston fight..
    he was UNCONCIOUS..
    so, there shouldn’t even be debate over that one..
    he didn’t wake up until the ref landed on him..

    KenFlo/J-Lau is an amazing example of how ref’s should stop a fight..
    the ever so controversial Herb Dean [who’s obviously getting better at stopping fights :see: boetsch/heath (although that stoppage was wayyy late) and kenflo/jlau] gave J-Lau every single chance to get out of the mount.. and he did escape twice.. i mean, herb was very intelligent in seeing that the shots from kenflo weren’t doing too much damage and that j-lau was still alive in the fight.. but when it went that long and j-lau tried so hard to escape, and couldn’t, herb had to call the fight.. because otherwise we would have had kenny dropping punches for the next 3 minutes.. whether they were fight-finishing blows or not.. and that’s just not healthy..

    GOOD JOB HERB!!

    that’s the first time i’ve ever said that.. and maybe the last..

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  • Huckaby says:

    I absolutely respect that argument, I just disagree given the realism of sports and what goes on elsewhere. I think if people could truly put themselves into the shoes of a guy with that one big career goal that has 10 years experience and countless hours invested it’d be a little different. Just the thought of losing everything you’ve worked for since your teenage years on someone else’s decision would not sit right.

    #2 – I completely agree with pretty much all of that. Turning down Fitch to fight Alves was karma. I’m a big believer in karma, not as a mystical supernatural being, just the fact if you put someone or something down and crap on it it will never benefit you. Turning down Fitch for an “easier” fight with Alves was a kiss of death. And yes, Herring should have charged in and then who knows. But really it could have been stopped there by a lesser ref.

    The point was to show how speculative all MMA opinions are and how much is in the hands of the ref. Nog is now the UFC Heavyweight Champion. He could be a “PRIDE failure” that lost to Heath Herring and people wouldn’t have any respect for him. As it stands every single MMA fan’s opinion on him is completely different simply based on a ref’s judgment call. That’s a heavy hand to wield. You’re talking about careers and legacies and the the base of the sport in general being questioned because you won’t let someone get a benefit of fighting back an extra 5 seconds.

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  • Michaelthebox says:

    Please stop comparing Nog/Herring with Karo/Alves. Even when he got clocked, Nogueira still did more to protect himself than Karo did.

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  • Tom Biggins says:

    I would agree with the “KO threshold” theory if every fighter wasn’t different. Being in the UFC dosen’t make your jaw any harder than it was when you were fighting in the rinky dink leagues.

    But, I remember an interview with BJM and Maz about how they studied each fighter and gauged about how much they can take. You can’t compare someone with a glass jaw to someone like Big Nog…he is a machine, and he can take a huge amount of punishment before going out. While, other fighters, wether or not they’re concious, can get themselves hurt pushing the limit.

    Let’s look at it like this. Big Nog’s KO threshold vs. Houston Alexander.

    Houston, while he dosen’t exactly have a glass jaw (see fight with Keith Jardine) we do not know how far he could push himself taking repeated unanswered shots.

    Big Nog, a long time Vet, we know that after any one of those punches that lands, he could lock up a submission or tie his opponent up…it’s just how he fights.

    Houston, later down the road, may prove that he can push alot further than a Ref may think now…but until then, he gets the safe stop.

    I hope that makes sense to everyone…

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  • Rich S. says:

    wtf!!
    when i said i agree w/ #3.. the comment that’s number four right now.. was #3.. and i thought i was comment number 7..

    WTF!! I’M CONFUSED

    either way..

    “agree w/ the first part of #3″

    make that #4..

    and i agree w/ #13 as well.. nog had herring in guard.. karo had alves on his side.. there isn’t too much of an argument..

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  • Huckaby says:

    Again, didn’t mean this specifically about last night. Houston was out, there is no doubt. He was limp. Karo is much more arguable. My opinion, whether you think he was done or not, is that you give a guy that’s waited 2 or 3 years for another title shot the benefit of the doubt and let him eat an extra punch. He could have popped back and won that fight but we’ll never know. If you were the fighter who put your entire life into this moment you’d like a little to not end the dream questionably.

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  • jt says:

    Karo looked like a fatty last night. He was going down either way. He was outmatched last night. His striking was considerably slower and he couldn’t utilize the judo…

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  • HexRei says:

    Karo looked like a fatty last night. He was going down either way. He was outmatched last night. His striking was considerably slower and he couldn’t utilize the judo…

    but none of those are reason to stop a fight.

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  • Cobra Kai says:

    I don’t like Karo either. “Do you know who I am”? A guy who is never going to get a title shot?

    I don’t think veterans should get more time, I think everyone should get the same but I think in a lot of cases, veteran or rookie the fights stop too soon. There needs to be more consistency across the board.

    Also, the UFC needs to get rid of this idea that if you lose once you automatically drop way down in the rankings. There should be consideration to how the loss happened. Take Houston Alexander for example. The guy was out. No question about it. But it was a stupid mistake. He saw the leg come up and thought kick and got a superman punch instead. Does that mean he is a crappy fighter? No. He just made a mistake. I hope he doesn’t drop off the main card because of it.

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  • Mike Wolfe says:

    I don’t think you can compare MMA to other sports. Jordan stood little chance of being knocked out, and even journeyman quarterbacks are protected by the rules from late hits. Injuries do happen in football, but not intentionally. Injuries in basketball are even less frequent than in basketball. In contrast, fighters in MMA are trying to inflict damage on one another. Because of that unique component, MMA rules have to be enforced stringently.

    I’m not sure “star treatment” makes much sense anyway. If a ref sees a “star’s” eyes roll back or glaze over, the fighter can’t defend himself and it needs to stop regardless of what they’ve done in previous fights. Furthermore, it’s impossible for fans to see the situation as closely as the ref, so you have to give the ref the benefit of the doubt.

    I don’t care what Karo says now, he was defenseless when Mazz stopped the fight, and getting punched in the head three or four more times by a fighter with hands as heavy as Thiago would have been dangerous and pointless.

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  • Tom Biggins says:

    Way to stay on topic people!!! Good job…

    Come on people, no one cares about Karo…how about you talk about the topic and save the needless debate for sherdog? Either way your wasting your breath, he lost, and wether he was out or not will not change that.

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  • bubbafat says:

    What commission handles the MMA sanctioning in Colorado? Could the ref’s have been less inclined to let a call go in Denver?Under that commission? I noticed that an official last night had a Colorado State Boxing Commission shirt on.

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  • roomservicetaco says:

    I say yes to different treatment but not because of the Jordan rules.

    In MMA (and boxing), the stars are generally guys fighting and training full time, whereas lower level guys are still holding down jobs. Stars should be in better shape and better skilled at taking shots without a lot of damage. Moreover, the stakes are higher at the upper skill level. There’s a big difference between a guy risking permanent brain damage to improve his record go 5-3 for $1500 versus the guy who’s fighting for the title.

    That said, I was ok with the Karo stoppage last night.

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  • HexRei says:

    the word “namely” in that first sentence is misused and could be omitted entirely. FIGHTLINKER NEEDS EDITORS

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  • HexRei says:

    oops, i meant 5oz of pain :)

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  • d-train says:

    didn’t karo crumple the same way when serra hit him right off the bat in their match, and then come back to win?…

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  • Rich S. says:

    “If you were the fighter who put your entire life into this moment you’d like a little to not end the dream questionably”

    i still think you’re not thinking about alves at all..
    karo parisyan is the most talented person alves has faced..
    and beating him gets alves way up there in the title shots..
    don’t you think alves has waited for a title his whole life too??
    each fighter had equal size in what was on the line [although karo was somewhat cheated out of a title shot, and alves has never had one, but that’s not really a factor]

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  • HexRei says:

    i still think you’re not thinking about alves at all..
    karo parisyan is the most talented person alves has faced..
    and beating him gets alves way up there in the title shots..
    don’t you think alves has waited for a title his whole life too??
    each fighter had equal size in what was on the line [although karo was somewhat cheated out of a title shot, and alves has never had one, but that’s not really a factor]

    If the stoppage was proper, then letting it go a little longer wouldn’t have put Alvez’ win in jeopardy, as more time would just have allowed him to finish the KO and win more decisively. And I seriously doubt Alvez would appreciate your implication that a questionable stoppage was somehow more appropriate because it helped Alvez’ career.

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  • Huckaby says:

    Thank you sir. I’m taking nothing away from no one, and again this has nothing to do with last night’s Fight Night card outside of bringing up the topic.

    Make sure a guy is beat before you stop it. That’s all. These guys put their blood, sweat, and tears into every single second. Every ref call in MMA is like the final seconds of Game 7 of the NBA Finals.

    For every piece of crap like Chael Sonnen that complains about a stoppage poorly there is a guy who was really screwed over. I’m just saying with all of the time these guys put in don’t you owe it to them to give them a chance to fight back. Again, like Nog/Herring who knows how many of these fights have happened where a guy would have come back to win.

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  • HexRei says:

    I think calling Sonnen a piece of crap is really unnecessary and unprofessional Huckaby.

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  • jt says:

    The question of whether or not a vet should recieve a little leniency when it comes to stoppages is a good one. Undoubtedly I can see how a ref could let it go a little longer, considering the fact that vets have been in “deep waters” before, but Steve is first and foremost looking out for the safety of the fighters, and I have no doubt that he would argue that from his point of view Karo was done.

    It was a good call, and I would argue that vets already do get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to stoppages.

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  • Huckaby says:

    “I think calling Sonnen a piece of crap is really unnecessary and unprofessional Huckaby.”

    No, screaming, “TAP TAP TAP TAP” and then complaining about the stoppage is unnecessary and unprofessional. I absolutely respect Sonnen’s game but what happened that night is unforgivable as a dozen websites were going nuts about a poor stoppage when he knew full well what happened. That only hurts arguments like the original one I was trying to make here.

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  • tony says:

    The stopping was justified and no, there should be no difference between fighters, the ref’s should ref the same every fight the same. Karo is just a crybaby brat, and he is OVERRATED.

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  • Rich S. says:

    “No, screaming, “TAP TAP TAP TAP” and then complaining about the stoppage is unnecessary and unprofessional”

    sonnen did NOT scream tap tap tap tap.. he just screamed in pain.. or fear.. he didn’t say those words..
    the ref probably thought his arm was about to break or something.. or misread the scream..

    and..

    “And I seriously doubt Alvez would appreciate your implication that a questionable stoppage was somehow more appropriate because it helped Alvez’ career.”

    i didn’t quite understand that part..

    i wasn’t saying it’s good he stopped the fight early [which, it wasn’t early] because it helped alves’ career.. i was just saying, to huckaby, that karo had no more on the line than alves did..
    i mean, that was the biggest fight of alves’ career, hands down..
    and yes, karo was in line for a title shot.. but.. there’s no reason to let it go longer and possibly let karo get injured, because he has alot on the line.. every fighter has alot on the line.. always..

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  • JohnnyRev says:

    There are many sides to this argument , but to interject any thing subjective into would only cloud the issue even further . Bottom line … I am a Big Time Karo and Houston Fan but ……The ref’s did what they get paid to do ..Protect the Fighter .. and just cause you have fought x amount of times doesnt make your head any harder!!!

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  • Huckaby says:

    “sonnen did NOT scream tap tap tap tap.. he just screamed in pain.. or fear.. he didn’t say those words..”

    So you didn’t see the .gif of him yelling “TAP” toward the referee from the other camera angle?

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  • egad81 says:

    Karo should have brought his cannabis card with him… (inside joke)

    Was that not the best fight card on free TV ever?

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  • Owen says:

    I hate this controversial stoppage bs, the fight is over, its in the past! Refs have a tough job and I’m sure they’re not out to get anybody.

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  • HexRei says:

    Huckaby, despite the fact that I agree that he misrepresented that situation, there is still enough question in my mind that i think calling him a “piece of crap” is unwarranted. frankly as even a semi-professional journalist you should avoid that type of pejorative entirely.

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  • Todd says:

    Regarding giving vets more time before a stoppage: They stop fights to prevent injury to the fighter. I don’t see why it makes sense to have two sets of rules. A vet isn’t any less prone to serious injury when being attacked while unconsious than a rookie. I don’t think it makes sense to cut them slack at the risk of their health (or life) and not the rookie. But they should only stop the fight if the fighter is not intelligently defending themselves, and I think that should be defined only by one taking an un-defended blow that lands them unconscious. I absolutely hate stoppages and think neither Karo’s fight nor Joe Lauzon’s fight should have been stopped. Karo’s was in hindsight just a bad call, he looked like he might have been out. But with Joe’s fight, he wasn’t taking damage. It shouldn’t matter that he was mounted. He almost got out twice. Why not wait until he is getting damaged? Being mounted looks bad if you don’t know what you’re doing. He was covered up and waiting for an opportunity to escape. That is intelligently defending yourself. Way to go Herb, another pre-mature stoppage for the old resume.

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  • Fight Fan says:

    Surely refs have guidelines to follow just like in other sports.
    If a guy has taken a blow, goes limp hits the canvas and dosn’t protect himself its game over regaurdless of how he recovers afterwards.
    The ref has an obligation to protect fighters.
    He can’t change the rules cause they’re vets and give the vets the advantage or let them get injured badly.
    People should only complain about stopages when guidelines havn’t been followed like if they didn’t tap or if they were protecting themselves etc.
    Karo lost fair and square as did Housten.
    Get over it.

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  • Shawn says:

    Alright here we go:

    Veterans at the level of Karo should be given slightly more leeway not because they’ve “earned it” but because they have proved it. That is the sole reason. A guy fighting in his first few MMA fights has not yet proved his durability whereas a guy who has been around for a while has displayed his durability if not by something he has done in a fight then by the amount of fights he’s been in. On top of that the significance of a match up matters. If Herring-Nog was a fight between two prospects on an Atlantic City card and was stopped after the kick than no one would have argued anything. The more significant fights become in terms of titles and rankings the more we need to see closure.

    The deal is this: MMA vets have proven they can take punishment without being seriously injured which, in legal terms, gives anyone they might sue a basis to fall back on. In terms of actual fighting the significance of a matchup means it needs to go longer.

    Let’s take what I’ve just said as Bible for this specific argument and also include MMA rules of intelligently defending and the like. With that added in I honestly believe we can say there was nothing wrong with the Houston call and that the Karo call was questionable. Houston was dropped and Irvin landed two unanswered bombs on his head. Despite benig conscious he didn’t look close to defending. That means the fight is done. Despite that when looking at Karo he was dropped but appeared to be in a defensive position. On top of that Houston hasn’t broken 10 fights yet whereas Karo is at around 30 against mostly top competition. Add in the fact that he seemingly was in a halfway defensive form and I think we can say that was a premature stoppage. Now I can’t tell you whether or not Alves would’ve continued to rain down punches to win or anything of that sort because the fight ended. It is a moot point. The fact is at the time it was stopped it was early. It’s like declaring the winner of a fight before it starts because he was heavily favored. You can say over and over again what would have happened but before it actually does it doesn’t hold any weight.

    Let me also add that I’m not a a huge Karo fan. His comments about Fitch over the last few months and his constant griping about the title shot have straight up pissed me off. This is not a pro Karo argument; this is a pro-MMA argument. If you work for corporate America 9-5 you will get away with something you might screw up on and get away with it quicker than a guy out of college would and the reason is because your boss knows what you’re capable of and gives you a chance out of respect. This carries over to MMA.

    To anyone that disagrees: there is no arguing with this. What I have just stated is fact backed up by logical reasoning. You are wrong.

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  • Johnwall says:

    In response to #41 Shawn:

    Look buddy, I’m a very thoughtful guy myself,

    and I don’t see the “legal”, “corporate”, and “Biblical” reference making much sense.

    The fact is that we are talking about MMA, which is a “sport”.

    So you’ve got the analogies flying all around but none of them seem to hit the mark.

    A referee stoppage is a referee stoppage.

    That’s all there is to it.

    You can’t argue it.

    You can’t “logicize” it.

    It’s a verdict, a judgment, a decision…

    Karo was hurt by the blow…

    knees can do a lot of damage…

    and to be honest, I think it was the way Karo went down…

    that had something to do with it…

    Too bad for Karo, but oh well…

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  • casper-fly says:

    a very well argued post, I hadn’t thought of it in that way. The thing is that the really serious concussions, the ones that do the real damage, come after you have been knocked out the first time. Karo was clearly knocked out for quite a few seconds there and any more punches, without letting the brain heal from the KO bruising, is seriously dangerous.

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  • Fight Fan says:

    If someone (AA for example) has a bad chin and has proven it should the ref stop it early? and how far do they go, perhaps the best fighters just get their hand raised as the walk in the ring and the bad ones just dont turn up.
    Same rules for everyone.Good, bad, stong, weak, good chin, bad chin.
    Its that simple.

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  • Fight Fan says:

    P.S. Shawn thats not logic mate.
    Its compitition between two people.
    Ya know sports.
    Not 9-5 job.
    Ref is not a boss.
    He is not meant to show bias.
    Ya know the whole idea of sports.
    Saying that the ref should not be unbias is not a “pro MMA argument”.
    You’re way off.

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  • Gabber says:

    I personally think, since I saw the fight with Marcus Davis vs Paul Taylor (can’t remember the one in the UK where he was on the brink) that fights get stopped way too early. There is always a chance the guy will get his bearings bust a nice sub or roll because the mounted fighter is too high and they sneak a full guard.

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  • BustYoFace says:

    Listen Guys,
    The best ref in the game was quoted saying a couple of things that might clear this up for you guys. Big John said after the Page/Chuck fight that “you always want to give the champ the benifit of the doubt and the chance to recover and defend himself but it was clear that chuck was not defending himslef”. That sounds to me that there is an “understanding” between refs and certain fighters.

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  • I think vets should be given more of a chance. They have the experience to cover up or recover better due to having been in the situation more than once.
    For the fights on Spike, Houston had his arms to the side and was putting up zero defence, Karo had his arms up near his head and was recovering his wits, Thiago didn’t have a free shot at Karo, he was slipping in some good shots. So many times we’ve seen a guy on the brink only to come back and win a fight.
    It’s a tough call by the refs but I think quite often they stop it too soon. If a guy is covering up quite well and doesn’t go limp, he can tap if he thinks he’s screwed.

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  • Derek B. says:

    Vet or not…if you look like your out of it then the fights over. We can’t be letting people get seriously hurt inside of the cage/ring because they have more experience. That is being biased by itself.

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  • truth says:

    Yeah, Big John R.I.P. (ref in peace) has said he takes the fighters experience/ability into account when deciding a stoppage, I don’t recall him ever really making a bad call where everyone was screaming at the tube either.

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  • Jackyl says:

    No fighter should get special treatment. But the refs should give vets the benefit of the doubt. For a while Herb Dean was the king of quick stoppages. I know I’m gonna get some heat for this but….. Ortiz/Shamrock 2 was stoppped waaaaaay too fast. Especially after the buildup to that fight. So Shamrock had taken a couple elbows to the face, he had guard and he was fine. The other night was a perfect example of a ref doing a good job when Dean let the Florian fight go until it was 100% clear that Lauzon wasn’t getting out.Another fight that was close to being stopped was Ortiz/Forrest. Forrest weathered the storm and actually made a close fight of it. Alexander did the Chuck Liddell I’m out for a half second dance. The refs are trained to react instantly so I can see that one. Karo is not overated. His Judo skills give him an edge over most fighters. He was covering up and probably could have pulled guard. There’s all kinds of fights where fighters just get dropped and it doesn’t get stopped right away. By the rationale of the other night, they should have stopped Mir and Lesnar instead of taking a point. Mir was out. At the end of the day we have to go by the ref’s judgement but they need to look at the totality of the situation.

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  • ossBASHA says:

    All stoppages were fair IMHO. Karo has to much of an ego to admit defeat, and Houston is in denial. Joe admitted that he “could see why the fight was stopped”. Nothing controversial about this UFN13, excellent reffing.

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  • BJJDenver says:

    “ Open Discussion: Should Vets Get More Respect from Referees? ”

    NO.

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  • Derek B. says:

    “So you didn’t see the .gif of him yelling “TAP” toward the referee from the other camera angle?”

    Huckaby you are wrong he didn’t yell “Tap” he yelled “NO TAP!” Watch it closely.

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  • ctownhood says:

    For the record….Karo was never offered a fight with Fitch. Both fighters have said so. Someone did ask Karo if he WANTED to fight Fitch, and he said he would prefer another fight…that’s all.

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  • Atom says:

    Everyone likes a rematch/revenge fight. (thers always that option people)
    SO…
    I say, gaurantee the fighters live to fight another day.

    Who wants to see Karo vs Alves 2????

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  • BJJDenver says:

    Rather see Karo and Diego go again^^^^.

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  • Tim Crawford says:

    Treat even the same.
    Some vets are already punch drunk and should technically be stopped sooner then the new fishes.
    Karo got rocked, Alexander got rocked and if they fought better they would have won and I would have won my straight bets on those guys.

    Love the website guys.

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  • Tim Crawford says:

    And by the way, ‘WHY HATE KARO’?
    Besides for having way to much chest hair?
    Anyone else wishing Nate Diaz goes up to 170 just to choke him out and then back to 155.
    Karo was an idiot on TUF and how bout manvel showing how classy the whole family tree is in his prelim fight.

    Treat em all the same.
    Let them live to fight and speak clearly another day.

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  • Hogan says:

    The stoppages were solid and I have no complaints. But please explain why when Lesnar struck Mir in the back of the head the fight was stopped, a point deducted and recovery time granted. In the JLo Ken Flo fight Florian was clearly striking in the back of the head opening a nasty cut. Florian was warned and the fight continued on the feet with no recovery time granted. J LO wasn’t the same and that incident could have changed the course of the fight. Why are these situations left to discretion and not governed by a set rule or protical?

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  • Fight Fan says:

    #48 I think what big John meant by that was that he wanted to give Chuck the benifit of the doubt but couldn’t, not that he has an “understanding” with any one fighter.
    There is no “understanding”. If refs are bias or have an “understanding” they could be changing the outcome of a fight in favour of one fighter.
    I think that should be left to the fighters as much as possible.
    People are talking about big Nog vs Heath. In that fight Nog was defending himself the whole time he was rocked and stunned not knocked out and limp like Karo.
    Maybe they should bring in 10 counts to keep people happy.
    But then people will say vets should get 20 counts.
    Just stupid.

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  • Ross says:

    Steve Mazzagatti (sp) says that different level fighters get treated differently. Its easy to understand- an A level fighter can withstand more punishment ( or atleast is more used to the damage) where as a B level fighter may need more referee intervention. None the less, the Karo stoppage, imo was legit.

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  • Fight Fan says:

    Well Steve Mazzagatti is very naughty then.

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