Was I the only one who thought Rampage won?
July 6, 2008 by Sam Caplan
Filed under UFC 86
I will have a full breakdown of my thoughts on UFC 86 later today after I get some sleep and take some time to do a full writeup.
But before I hit the sack, I just wanted to ask if I was the only one out there who scored today’s main event 49-46 in favor of Quinton Jackson?
I thought it was an amazing fight and that Forrest Griffin fought the best fight of his career. A lot of the rounds were extremely close, but I felt that Jackson stole rounds three and four because he landed more power shots.
The kicks landed by Griffin took their toll and scored points, but at the end of the day, I think a power shot to the face is worth more. Forrest’s head jilted back on several occasions and Jackson not only cut him, but opened up the cut further.
I scored the first round 10-9 Jackson (I was about to give it to Forrest until the knockdown); the second round 10-9 Griffin (I need to re-watch the round though because I almost felt like it might have been a 10-8 round in favor of Griffin); round 3 I had 10-9 in favor of Jackson (it was a tough call though); round 4 was again 10-9 Jackson; and the final round I had 10-9 Jackson.
I will re-watch the fight tomorrow. Maybe I am completely wrong. There’s a reason why I’m a writer/fan and not a judge. I just wanted to see if there is anyone else out there who scored the fight the same way I did.
I just re-watched the fight. First time I had it Rds. 2 (10-8),3 and 5 to Griffin and Rds. 1 and 4 to Rampage. The second time, I had it the same, but the 5th was so much closer than I thought.
Now here’s the deal for all these ‘Rampage was Robbed!” naysayers… Rampage, with the exception of Round 1 was backing up almost all of the fight and protecting his leg, especially after Rd 2 where he was severely pummeled. In Rds. 3 – 5, he was near a ‘Liddell clone’ in the Jardine fight, primarily backing away and counter punching… with only a rare forward aggression, which while possibly effective, is not a helluva lot better and prettier than Kaleb ‘ The Marathon Man’ Starnes. This was NOT the fight plan of a self proclaimed whup-ass champion. It was the strategy of a dude who was seriously hurt from some nasty-ass ‘Bas Rutten’ style leg kicks.
Did Griffin cleanly win Rd 3 or 5? Maybe, but did Rampage win those rounds? Maybe… Was it a close exciting fight that was left in the hands of judges who saw fit to give it to the guy who pressed the action for rounds 2 – 5? Yes, absolutely.
Jackson was so adamant that there would be no decision. He failed. Griffin fought a smart, tactical fight and lets look one week in the future, when I CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO SAY GRIFFIN’S FACE IS MORE MESSED UP THAN JACKSON’S LEG WILL BE!!!
So if those people who foolishly say that Rampage’s punches were more effective striking… let’s watch how Rampage is walking in a week. Then, let them say it again, so I can laugh out loud. Jackson’s leg will be swelled up, maybe with serious damage and certainly much uglier than Griffin’s face. I would not be surprised if Griffin might be 2 for 2 for opponents requiring knee surgery following one of his fights.
Rampage was an awesome Champ and a gracious loser. He will be around for a longtime and probably hold the belt again. Griffin earned that victory and it was neither cheap nor stolen. He beat the champ… he out hit him in numbers, he out hurt him (knee vs. face), he out conditioned him, he out pounded him on the ground and he had the better submission attempts. Who’s truly foolish enough to cry foul on that?
This was close, this was a great fight, and this was why I love MMA. Let’s give Forrest his due. The world has a real life Rocky and we should all be happy and have a greater faith that when doctors tell us, “we can’t”, that when the critics tell us, “we can’t”, that when the world tells us, “we can’t”…well, if we believe and ourselves and are willing to make the sacrifice, we just might prove ‘em all wrong.
I long ago held to the old adage that ‘people who are successful are willing to do the things that other people are not’. That defines Forrest Griffin, he’s willing to work harder and take more pain and keep working on his weaknesses. Tonight I have more belief in myself than i did when i woke up. Thanks Forrest. Cheers Mates!
I had it as a draw.
I scored it the same as #13–A draw
damn, 103 comments on a 5oz post and it doesnt even involve an athletic commission or the diaz brothers? blowin’ up! wasnt able to watch the fights last night, but i’m looking forward to this one. sounds like a classic.
We had a huge argument between all of us here. One side thought Rampage won, and one side that Griffin won, but nobody thought it was a unanimous decision. I actually thought it could have been scored as a draw but I believe if it wasn’t a draw that Rampage won.
1st = 10-9 Rampage
2nd = 10-8 Forrest
3rd = 10-9 Rampage
4th = 10-9 Rampage
5th = 10-9 Forrest
Round 2 was 10-8 and the rest could have gone either way. That’s what gave Griffin the advantage and he probably did more damage overall. Its all subjective and not one of you were ringside except Meltzer. I don’t care about the Sherdog people either…maybe Breen’s opinion holds water, but the rest of ‘em just make boring 2 hour podcasts all week.
i was surprised by the judges’ scoring, i can’t believe it wasn’t a split decision.
rampage needed to come back guns blazing in the 5th round but didn’t…
the 5th round was kind of anti-climatic really.
second round was definitely 10-8 griffin…
Forrest > Rampage.
End of story.
More like
Forrest = Rampage
I 100% thought Rampage won. He clearly won the 1st and the 4th and I thought he won the third. As far as a 10-8 secong round, sure Forrest was in control that round but what damage did he do besides the two leg kicks that led to the takedown? Could you have done less from mount than Forrest did?
Definately agree with you on the power shots, Rampage landed all the big hits.
It was a close fight but I definately had it on points to Rampage.
He should get his rematch soon, if not for Forrest’s first defence.
Forrest not only wins a close decision but should receive Rampage’s entire purse for smarting off during the TUF show.
I thought for sure that Rampage had won. To me it didnt seem like Forrest did anything except for those leg kicks in round 2. I am so puzzled by how judges score rounds. Its true when they say you cant let it go to the judges – you never know what will happen. Cause – They didnt just have Page losing they had him losing bad.
and one other thing – did anybody care that Joe Stevenson had his son in attendence for the 1st time. i thought that was ridiculous to even mention. he should worry a little more about his fighting than who is there for him. cause he barely escaped with a win.
i scored it a draw.
r1: 10-9 jackson
r2: 10-8 griffin
r3: 10-9 griffin
r4: 10-9 jackson
r5: 10-9 jackson
Juanito needs to retire and Rampage needs to give Forrest his whole purse, thats what happens when people say stupid shit like that YOU LOSE! Forrest won 2,4,5 10-8 10-9 10-9 & the 3rd was tied
Rampage HANDILY won that fight. The single most catastrophic decision in MMA. Worse the Rizzo vs Big Nog.
An absolute travesty for our sport. A total joke.
all you people who think Rampage won are wild. You are all Rampage fans or lost some kind of money on the fight or both. the reason round 2 was a 10-8 is because Forrest was on top for 4 minutes pounding Rampage. Somebody said page defended well while on the ground that round! HOW!? By blocking forrest’s fist with his face for 4 minutes?GREAT defense. Now I would say scoring round 3 would be the hardest for any fan or judge. But the way i felt that when page got his own takedown he didnt do a whole lot while on top.while forrest got that triangle choke attempt off scoring points from the bottom helped. and the damage done to Page’s leg was the deciding factor. It was a sound judgement. No travesty here.
Scoring aside, the intangible criteria of heroicism should also factor in. Both of these guys bring a reputation for their consistent valiant efforts and ability to pull out a victory. In this respect, Rampage came out ahead. Considering the distance that Jackson traveled from near defeat in the 2nd, I think the real champion was evident by the end. After the 2nd, Forrests’s approach amounted to treading water and didn’t seem to be trying to close the deal for the rest of the fight. That’s my take. The victory was not conclusive, at all. An immediate rematch is more than warranted.
It all depends on who you were rooting for. I had it for Jackson because i wanted him to win.
good post #101
This fight has me thinking that in MMA, the tie goes to the underdog, not the Champ. This isn’t boxing, and somehow maybe it’s good to give the underdog his due. In a fight, if somebody is absolutely supposed to kick somebody’s ass, if he’s meant to destroy him, and then the guy puts up a hell of a fight, well it’s like a victory because he kept it close.
Forrest benefitted from that. He kept the fight close when Rampage was supposed to “whoop his ass.” And he almost did in that first round. That shot that dropped Forrest was the end that most (including Rampage) expected. A quick mount and some blows reigned down and the ref stops it. But he couldn’t put Griffin away. You could see look of disappointment on his face at the end of the round. It was subtle, but you could a “damn, he’s still in the fight” flash across his eyes.
Neither round one or two was a 10-8. A 10-8 is when you beat the hell out of someone and just miss putting them away. Forrest was on top, but didn’t do much from that position. But he did hold him down the whole round after that great leg kick. What a round like that does (while not a 10-8) is create momentum. If the next round is close, like it was, it should go to the guy who is coming off a dominant round.
The real way the fight went was Rampage 1, Forrest 2 and 3, Rampage 4, and then the last round was actually even, too close to score. I don’t believe it the 10 point must system. If neither guy does enough to establish who won the round it should be a 9-9. That would make this fight a draw, which, let’s face it, is basically the truth of what happened. I watched the show without commentary by the way, and was rooting for Forrest to win.
I was of the mind that in draw situations the Champ gets the nod. But this is were the underdog thing comes in. Rampage was supposed to destroy him. He said the fight wouldn’t go to decision. It did and he lost because it was thrilling to watch Forrest make a fight of it. If we had no idea who either guy was and watched the fight, might it have been scored differently? Perhaps, but it really doesn’t matter.
This wasn’t Hamill/Bisping. History will show that Forrest won and I don’t think it will say it was a controversial decision. But it was much much much closer than the official scorecards.
Sam – I agree with you on this one. Obviously, Forrest was more aggressive in this fight. As for octagon control, if you consider attacking your opponent with your head down while getting your face smashed controlling the octagon then you’ll pick Forrest; if not, then Rampage is likely to be your winner. Forrest threw more punches but Rampage landed more punches. I scored it 48-46 Rampage.
It wouldn’t have gone to a decision, if Rampage didn’t have an injured leg for the last three rounds. It also wouldn’t have gone to a decision if Forrest could take advantage of the GNP opportunity for the last 4 minutes of Rd 2. Take those two shortcomings out on both fighter’s part and you have Rampage pounding on Forrest’s face while being peppered with jabs and low kicks. But yeah, I’d say tie goes to the champ.
“To be the man, you have to beat the man,” Rick Flair.
#117 all forrest did from the top was rub his elbows into pages face. If it was such a pounding then why wasn’t his face more damaged at the end of the fight.
maybe its my love of baseball and the tie goes to the runner thing or maybe it goes back to my pro wrestling fanboy days but i just think the champion gets the round if it is the least bit questionable.
Rampage said on the show that he will bet his whole purse that it wont go to a decision and Ibarra said he will retire if Rampage loses. i bet both of them wont keep there word.
Not that anyone is going to read post #126 at this point but… I thought he pulled it out too… I gave him 1, 3 & 4. Oh well. I hope for an immediate rematch.
I thought it was much closer than the scorecards read, I thought a draw or a split decision in favor of Rampage was coming. I didn’t see it as that one sided, but now that I have watched the fight again i can see where a couple of rounds namely the third and fourth were a toss up and it just depends on the person scoring, I’m of the opinion to beat the champ you have to BEAT! the champ but alot of people don’t see it that way. at least on this site people aren’t going crazy and saying the fix was in like the are on some other sites.
#121 j-dawgif forrest lead with his head why didn’t rampage tkfo him? don’t be butt hurt that your man didn’t win. do leg kicks count? forrest won the 2nd round because he kicked. had rampage won we would be hearing the same crying in the other direction. rematch will not happen till jackson beats someone else. luv ya man
Rampage should have to win another, but only one other, fight before he gets a rematch. Any of the following will do: Wandy, Rua, Machida. If Chuck gets past Rashad he will likely get the next shot at Griffin. If Rashad somehow wins, then that is another guy Rampage could fight to get his rematch.
The fight with Griffin was basically a draw. They each had dominant rounds, and the last three were too close to be definitive (though I gave Forrest 3 and Page 4). Nothing really happened in the last round. Page’s corner should have told him how close it was and had him go for it to close it out. He played it too careful.
The scorecards were a joke, though. Anyone who doesn’t give Rampage the first round should just give up ever trying to judge a fight. It doesn’t matter if the other guy is peppering in “tink” punches and racking up some minor points, when the other guy drops him to the mat with a strike and nearly finishes him off with GnP while the dude is clinging for his life to stay alive, HE WINS THAT ROUND, case closed. I wouldn’t make it a 10-8 for Page, but in no reality, real or imagined, does he lose that round. Same goes for round two, Forrest takes that with a 10-9. Never is that a 10-8. It was a great leg kick and he held Page down for the round, but Page neutralized him on the ground. Forrest never got anything off.
The last three round were pick ‘ems. Neither guy did enough to make it clear (though the triangle into power slam was the highlight of the fight.) Not complaining Forrest won, it was an inspired performance. But I feel bad for Rampage that the scorecards were so off. I was certain at least one judge would give it to him. I though he was going to take it myself.
Just saw the fight a second time, and I must say Forrest does a bit better on second viewing. I still thought the fight was even going into the last round. The third was the toughest round to call.
1. definitive Page. 2. definitive Griffin 3. Almost impossible to call, but I give to Griffin on momentum. 4. Page 5. This time instead of seeing it as even, I give a slight edge to Griffin for staying busier. And in a fight like this, the winner of the last round deserves it.
It’s fair that Forrest won. It just should have been 48 to 47.
I personally thought rampage had it won, with a high possibility of a draw. A unanimous decision was way out of wack. I have it on the DVR…i’ll need to watch this again.
Sam, I like both fighters and don’t have any bias towards either one. Since so many fans have said Forrest won, I really am questioning what I witnessed, but I saw it the same way u did.
R1: 10-9 Rampage
R2: 10-8 Forrest
R3: 10-9 Rampage
R4: 10-9 Rampage
R5: 10-9 Rampage
a win for rampage is just reaching. its a draw at best. round 3 could go to either fighter. so its not a robbery or a conspiracy as some of the people are claiming.
and sam, i agree with # 8 MrNiceGuyMMA
Come the f on Rampage totally won that fight. Griffin had one or two stupid kicks compared to rampages numerous hard punches. it was fixed, theres no way in hell forrest won that fight. Come on, 2 second round 10-8 hahahahaha more like the first round should of been when forrest hit the floor. Anyway, in the end forrest was clearly in pain and damaged and rampage didnt have a scratch on him. so who really did when that fight?
Come the f on Rampage totally won that fight. Griffin had one or two stupid kicks compared to rampages numerous hard punches. it was fixed, theres no way in hell forrest won that fight. Come on, second round 10-8 hahahahaha more like the first round should of been when forrest hit the floor. Anyway, in the end forrest was clearly in pain and damaged and rampage didnt have a scratch on him. so who really did win that fight?
I showed the fight to some of my buddies at work who don’t even watch mma. And without even telling them who I thought won they immediately said that Forrest won by a good margin.
@”Are you having a laugh”, yes I know everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I just felt strongly about mine. It was a close fight after rewatching it, but I still think Forrest won and he deserves that belt.
I think that it was very close however Forest maintained “Octagon control” for 70 percent of the fight. Hew delivered several unchecked kicks to the inner thighs and outter thighs. Plus the 2nd round was without a doubt went to Griffin. I watched the fight and am well aware of the scoring and when it was over I knew Griffin was going to win. And this crap of the champ stay the champ if it goes to decision is wrong if that is your base. Look at Tim Silvia vs. Randy Couture. It is possible. Rampage may have had the agressiveness scored but in the the words of every MMA fighter “if you leave it to the judges you are going to get fucked.” If you can’t finish it then you certainly can’t win it. Because who knows I am girl after all.