Comments on: UFC 88: A new camp is the answer for Liddell, not retirement http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/ Your Destination for Insider MMA News and Opinion Sat, 26 May 2012 17:18:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: Ray Lewis http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-49018 Ray Lewis Wed, 10 Sep 2008 18:50:19 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-49018 Chuck stopped doing a few things. 1.) QUICK jabs and angling up with people a certain way. 2.) Occasionally using a leg kick here and there 3.) BARRAGE of punches. Watch Tito against the fence, or how he would MOVE and counter (Chuck). EVEN up close, he would be too busy jabbing and throwing shots to worry---others had to cover up. Chuck WOULD inch forward, wait, inch forward find a safe kick or punch, inch forward then WHEN hurt, he'd rush guys and finish. OR, they'd get tired of being jabbed then move forward and eat something. As such, he was GOOD at putting his head on a platter then dodging the shots of others to land his (lots of pics of this floating around). --NOW, he will not use more than one jab, he moves FORWARD a lot more but QUICKER than is effective for him, and will set up ONE punch then launch it whereas it was BEST to move head THEN land that big one, or to use a BARRAGE (pressure). I HAVE NOT seen this Chuck since his last fight with Randy. Randy ate jabs, could not hang around outside, Chuck's hands were more UP, he did not drop the left as much. Now he is also dropping his hands. --HE NEEDS to get back to some of that, THEN if the KO is there it happens because of LITTLE THINGS. IF NOT, he should still win the striking wars IF he follows what he once did (can he though?). He also needs to FIGHT and not think, "ONE SHOT KO" all the time. What made him special is they'd train, have an approach, then HACKLEMAN told him where he'd likely find the KO if it was there. It kept happening. NOW, he is not doing what Hackleman tells him to do, and LIMITS himself. No clinch? No elbows in clinch? He cut Wandy bad like that. LITTLE THINGS add up. He once did things that made it to where he'd be likely to win. NOW, people know he won't do those things and they know his left will drop. NOt rocket science. Chuck stopped doing a few things.

1.) QUICK jabs and angling up with people a certain way.

2.) Occasionally using a leg kick here and there

3.) BARRAGE of punches. Watch Tito against the fence, or how he would MOVE and counter (Chuck). EVEN up close, he would be too busy jabbing and throwing shots to worry—others had to cover up. Chuck WOULD inch forward, wait, inch forward find a safe kick or punch, inch forward then WHEN hurt, he’d rush guys and finish. OR, they’d get tired of being jabbed then move forward and eat something. As such, he was GOOD at putting his head on a platter then dodging the shots of others to land his (lots of pics of this floating around).

–NOW, he will not use more than one jab, he moves FORWARD a lot more but QUICKER than is effective for him, and will set up ONE punch then launch it whereas it was BEST to move head THEN land that big one, or to use a BARRAGE (pressure). I HAVE NOT seen this Chuck since his last fight with Randy. Randy ate jabs, could not hang around outside, Chuck’s hands were more UP, he did not drop the left as much. Now he is also dropping his hands.

–HE NEEDS to get back to some of that, THEN if the KO is there it happens because of LITTLE THINGS. IF NOT, he should still win the striking wars IF he follows what he once did (can he though?). He also needs to FIGHT and not think, “ONE SHOT KO” all the time. What made him special is they’d train, have an approach, then HACKLEMAN told him where he’d likely find the KO if it was there. It kept happening. NOW, he is not doing what Hackleman tells him to do, and LIMITS himself. No clinch? No elbows in clinch? He cut Wandy bad like that. LITTLE THINGS add up. He once did things that made it to where he’d be likely to win. NOW, people know he won’t do those things and they know his left will drop. NOt rocket science.

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]]> By: Mike Wolfe http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48897 Mike Wolfe Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:07:56 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48897 The KO punch was an overhand, and that's what Rashad called it in the press conference after the fight. I've looked at video of the punch numerous times, and it wasn't an upper cut. Might've looked that way from some angles because he was in a crouched posture when he threw it. The KO punch was an overhand, and that’s what Rashad called it in the press conference after the fight. I’ve looked at video of the punch numerous times, and it wasn’t an upper cut. Might’ve looked that way from some angles because he was in a crouched posture when he threw it.

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]]> By: RBeezy http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48888 RBeezy Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:03:29 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48888 HexRei, use the N word around me and you're just a Peruvian Necktie waiting to happen. it's derogatory and no amount of pseudo-scholastic bullshit will change that. it started out as a slur and it has remained one of the most harmful English words ever created. no amount of revisionism will change that. HexRei, use the N word around me and you’re just a Peruvian Necktie waiting to happen.

it’s derogatory and no amount of pseudo-scholastic bullshit will change that. it started out as a slur and it has remained one of the most harmful English words ever created. no amount of revisionism will change that.

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]]> By: Detroit313 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48797 Detroit313 Tue, 09 Sep 2008 14:00:39 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48797 yawn. another weak article. yawn. another weak article.

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]]> By: stevefiji http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48762 stevefiji Tue, 09 Sep 2008 06:10:44 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48762 Sam, this was a great article and I have just one question and one comment for you, as per your writing style... Does Peter Gammons ( a MLB Hall of Fame inductee) of ESPN have to talk about the fact that he did NOT play baseball when he write a critical assessment? The answer "No" And now my comment. This was an amazingly insightful piece that came out first and went into areas none of the top 'beat' writers had gone before concerning Liddell. Your personal history of fight participation does not apply with respects to your ability to provide pointed and critical commentary. When you discount your opinion by mentioning it, only YOU are discounting what comes next, not the reader...or at least not the type of reader that you want to appeal to... In other words, you have graduated from the need to qualify your resume before sharing a point...just go for it! Tremendously well written, thanks from an increasingly appreciative fan of your work. Cheers! Sam, this was a great article and I have just one question and one comment for you, as per your writing style… Does Peter Gammons ( a MLB Hall of Fame inductee) of ESPN have to talk about the fact that he did NOT play baseball when he write a critical assessment? The answer “No”

And now my comment. This was an amazingly insightful piece that came out first and went into areas none of the top ‘beat’ writers had gone before concerning Liddell. Your personal history of fight participation does not apply with respects to your ability to provide pointed and critical commentary. When you discount your opinion by mentioning it, only YOU are discounting what comes next, not the reader…or at least not the type of reader that you want to appeal to… In other words, you have graduated from the need to qualify your resume before sharing a point…just go for it! Tremendously well written, thanks from an increasingly appreciative fan of your work. Cheers!

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]]> By: ultmma http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48698 ultmma Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:33:13 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48698 you can't teach a old dog new tricks pretty much sums that up. Has Liddell evolved since the days of KO-ing Vernon White and Tito Ortiz? I say no. plus the guys he lost to Jackson, Jardine and Evans are better than Horn, Sobral, and Ortiz etc. were the type of comp Liddel faced in 2005-2006 when it appeared Liddell was unstoppable at 205 you can’t teach a old dog new tricks pretty much sums that up.

Has Liddell evolved since the days of KO-ing Vernon White and Tito Ortiz?
I say no.

plus the guys he lost to Jackson, Jardine and Evans are better than Horn, Sobral, and Ortiz etc. were the type of comp Liddel faced in 2005-2006 when it appeared Liddell was unstoppable at 205

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]]> By: Imbecile http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48690 Imbecile Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:56:24 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48690 Sam, I agree with you on almost all accounts. I was only marginally impressed with Rashad last night, and nothing leads me to think he will be a worldbeater at 205. He starts off slow, practically giving away the first round in every fight. Nobody knows how he will do if Griffin takes him into rounds 4 & 5, but my guess is he won't have much energy left with all the bouncing around he does (showboating, to Matt Hughes). Also, we don't really know if he has the grit to get through a tough fight that Griffin will present. As for Liddell, I think he is certainly far from done. However, you are right that he is terribly predictable. I'm not sure it is fair to criticize his stance that much, as it is set up to prevent takedowns, and there is no definitive MMA handbook on the "best" way to do something. Liddell has obviously been very effective with this stance, but he needs to adjust his gameplans. Also, I totally agree that he needs to check kicks more in recent fights, but it seems he agrees, as well. Go back and watch the Evans fight again and you will see that Liddell actually moves to check leg kicks more than I have seen him do in years, and he was actually very effective at it. Otherwise, I think you are very correct on your analysis. Sam, I agree with you on almost all accounts. I was only marginally impressed with Rashad last night, and nothing leads me to think he will be a worldbeater at 205. He starts off slow, practically giving away the first round in every fight. Nobody knows how he will do if Griffin takes him into rounds 4 & 5, but my guess is he won’t have much energy left with all the bouncing around he does (showboating, to Matt Hughes). Also, we don’t really know if he has the grit to get through a tough fight that Griffin will present.

As for Liddell, I think he is certainly far from done. However, you are right that he is terribly predictable. I’m not sure it is fair to criticize his stance that much, as it is set up to prevent takedowns, and there is no definitive MMA handbook on the “best” way to do something. Liddell has obviously been very effective with this stance, but he needs to adjust his gameplans.

Also, I totally agree that he needs to check kicks more in recent fights, but it seems he agrees, as well. Go back and watch the Evans fight again and you will see that Liddell actually moves to check leg kicks more than I have seen him do in years, and he was actually very effective at it.

Otherwise, I think you are very correct on your analysis.

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]]> By: Kelvin http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48665 Kelvin Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:56:33 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48665 http://mma4real.net/?p=164 Sam, you should really check my blog more often :) http://mma4real.net/?p=164

Sam, you should really check my blog more often :)

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]]> By: Jack http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48655 Jack Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:45:49 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48655 Ya gotta give Rashad his due, Sam, and respect the man now. He's a tough challenge for anyone; his wrestling, together with his raw strength (despite his size) is excellent and his striking is underrated. Hopefully now it won't be. Also, there were still a lot of people who always thought Rashad was a good chance to win. Ya gotta give Rashad his due, Sam, and respect the man now. He’s a tough challenge for anyone; his wrestling, together with his raw strength (despite his size) is excellent and his striking is underrated. Hopefully now it won’t be. Also, there were still a lot of people who always thought Rashad was a good chance to win.

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]]> By: Edward http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48630 Edward Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:41:44 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48630 Seth Petruzelli predicted a Rashad victory by KO. Check the interview he did with MMAweekly recently Seth Petruzelli predicted a Rashad victory by KO. Check the interview he did with MMAweekly recently

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]]> By: Nate http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48618 Nate Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:55:55 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48618 Great suggestion. Liddell needs to make a change, accept the higher likeliness of future losses against quality opponents, or stop fighting. Rashad knocked out Chuck in spectacular fashion. Nobody is taking that away. Everyone gives credit where it is due. I am also not taking away the fact that Rashad is a boring, chicken-style fighter. I'd rather watch the after fight video of him knocking out Chuck than have to be tortured watching head-jiggle, dance, prance, and backing up for the entire match. Rashad may have beaten an "old school" great in Chuck, but Rashad is also another example of a simple 2 dimensional fighter. He can only "lay & pray" and punch. He has no actual submissions (unless you count submission punching), and few kicks. (Yes, I know he had a kick knockout, but still he does not use them very often). The next generation of fighters is here. Forrest will bring BJJ, Striking, and Kicks to the table. Great suggestion. Liddell needs to make a change, accept the higher likeliness of future losses against quality opponents, or stop fighting.

Rashad knocked out Chuck in spectacular fashion. Nobody is taking that away. Everyone gives credit where it is due.

I am also not taking away the fact that Rashad is a boring, chicken-style fighter. I’d rather watch the after fight video of him knocking out Chuck than have to be tortured watching head-jiggle, dance, prance, and backing up for the entire match.
Rashad may have beaten an “old school” great in Chuck, but Rashad is also another example of a simple 2 dimensional fighter. He can only “lay & pray” and punch. He has no actual submissions (unless you count submission punching), and few kicks. (Yes, I know he had a kick knockout, but still he does not use them very often).

The next generation of fighters is here. Forrest will bring BJJ, Striking, and Kicks to the table.

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]]> By: Mark Aulet http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48609 Mark Aulet Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:42:05 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48609 Sam I think Chucks akwards stance is the is what allows him to sprawl like noones business. That is why he utilizes that huge base. It hink it's time for Chuck to get back to his wrestling as he's proven his hands Imagine him submitting someone.. I'd be shocked. Sam I think Chucks akwards stance is the is what allows him to sprawl like noones business. That is why he utilizes that huge base. It hink it’s time for Chuck to get back to his wrestling as he’s proven his hands Imagine him submitting someone.. I’d be shocked.

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]]> By: Pimp_man http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48607 Pimp_man Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:10:39 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48607 Forrest ain't KOing Evans. With that fight were going to see a circling marathon. I agree with you same but I thought at the beginning of the 2nd round b4 the punch Rashad was hitting Liddell with some good shots. Liddell does need some updates done. Forrest ain’t KOing Evans. With that fight were going to see a circling marathon.

I agree with you same but I thought at the beginning of the 2nd round b4 the punch Rashad was hitting Liddell with some good shots. Liddell does need some updates done.

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]]> By: Jye http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48594 Jye Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:59:26 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48594 Liddell has nowhere near a glass jaw. It's just that he does expose himself to getting counter punched when he throws. The shots that he took from Rampage and Evans would of knocked anyone out I don't care if it's Henderson or Fedor or whoever. By the way I say rashad loses that fight nine times out of ten. That was seriously the first real punch he threw. I don't care how good his gameplan was you can't expect to throw like 5 real punches the whole fight and get 1 to connect so sweetly. Probably twisting his nipples for good luck. I hope Forrest KO's him big time Liddell has nowhere near a glass jaw. It’s just that he does expose himself to getting counter punched when he throws. The shots that he took from Rampage and Evans would of knocked anyone out I don’t care if it’s Henderson or Fedor or whoever.

By the way I say rashad loses that fight nine times out of ten. That was seriously the first real punch he threw. I don’t care how good his gameplan was you can’t expect to throw like 5 real punches the whole fight and get 1 to connect so sweetly. Probably twisting his nipples for good luck. I hope Forrest KO’s him big time

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]]> By: HexRei http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48592 HexRei Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:52:09 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48592 <b>Nick on September 7th, 2008 3:45 pm Caplan: Use of the N-word is not racist. It’s people like you who put a racial meaning on a word that existed long before slavery. Look it up in the dictionary, it means “ignorant or dumb person”. </b> Here, have some knowledge. The two words you are confusing ("niggardly", and "nigger") are very different words with different meanings and origins. "Niggard" or adjective form "niggardly" have their roots in Scandinavian/Germanic roots and mean "miser" or "stingy". "Nigger" is a slang term derived from the Spanish "negro", which means "black". The two words aren't related. Check your facts. Nick on September 7th, 2008 3:45 pm

Caplan: Use of the N-word is not racist. It’s people like you who put a racial meaning on a word that existed long before slavery. Look it up in the dictionary, it means “ignorant or dumb person”.

Here, have some knowledge. The two words you are confusing (“niggardly”, and “nigger”) are very different words with different meanings and origins.

“Niggard” or adjective form “niggardly” have their roots in Scandinavian/Germanic roots and mean “miser” or “stingy”.

“Nigger” is a slang term derived from the Spanish “negro”, which means “black”.

The two words aren’t related. Check your facts.

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]]> By: Sergio Hernandez http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48590 Sergio Hernandez Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:34:40 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48590 Sam, you have every right in not being impressed with Evans' performance up until that punch but in my opinion, he performed his gameplan perfectly. And this coming from a fan who thought Evans was tailor made for a Griffin/Liddell matchup in December. Evans knew what he was dealing with and patiently took his time, simple as that. And Nick, if you don't think that word is racist in almost any context, you are ignorant yourself. It doesn't matter what the original definition of that word is, it carries the stigma of being the most hateful and disgusting words that can be said in the English language. Sam, you have every right in not being impressed with Evans’ performance up until that punch but in my opinion, he performed his gameplan perfectly.

And this coming from a fan who thought Evans was tailor made for a Griffin/Liddell matchup in December.

Evans knew what he was dealing with and patiently took his time, simple as that.

And Nick, if you don’t think that word is racist in almost any context, you are ignorant yourself. It doesn’t matter what the original definition of that word is, it carries the stigma of being the most hateful and disgusting words that can be said in the English language.

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]]> By: Batman http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48586 Batman Mon, 08 Sep 2008 05:34:07 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48586 Evan's knockout of liddell was one of the most devastating punches I have ever seen in the UFC. I was concerned for chuck at first I am glad he is ok. I knew Rashad would win and like I said before Sam, Rashad will win and he is the stronger of the two and now we know he is the better of the two. Also I don't agree with your article, i am a fan of you and your website but you need to know when you are wrong and just admit it. Rashads win was not lucky it was skill, don't be a poor sport. Evan’s knockout of liddell was one of the most devastating punches I have ever seen in the UFC. I was concerned for chuck at first I am glad he is ok. I knew Rashad would win and like I said before Sam, Rashad will win and he is the stronger of the two and now we know he is the better of the two. Also I don’t agree with your article, i am a fan of you and your website but you need to know when you are wrong and just admit it. Rashads win was not lucky it was skill, don’t be a poor sport.

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]]> By: Rich S. http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48580 Rich S. Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:40:09 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48580 Nick, use of the N-word is racist.. i don't even need to give an example.. that's just bottom line.. whether it was originally intended to be or not, it is now-a-days.. and Tim, Chuck was throwing a BLATANT UPPERCUT.. not an overhand.. Nick,
use of the N-word is racist.. i don’t even need to give an example.. that’s just bottom line..
whether it was originally intended to be or not, it is now-a-days..

and Tim,
Chuck was throwing a BLATANT UPPERCUT.. not an overhand..

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]]> By: warcry http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48574 warcry Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:00:58 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48574 Sam, Chuck gave nothing away. It was taken from him. His mystique is gone. He is not feared like he once was. No more living on reputation. What's that old adage; "If you can't beat them join them'. Yea that is what Chuck is doing. Join Greg Jackson and figure out what is fucking him up. Sam, Chuck gave nothing away. It was taken from him. His mystique is gone. He is not feared like he once was. No more living on reputation. What’s that old adage; “If you can’t beat them join them’. Yea that is what Chuck is doing. Join Greg Jackson and figure out what is fucking him up.

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]]> By: KTru http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/09/07/ufc-88-a-new-camp-is-the-answer-for-liddell-not-retirement/comment-page-1/#comment-48560 KTru Mon, 08 Sep 2008 02:35:10 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=6258#comment-48560 bada55 Too much of a show off??? Like Chuck never showed off after any of his KO victories??? Deal with the fact that Evans is the better fighter, and quit whining about a guy that is exuberant after a huge win. bada55

Too much of a show off???

Like Chuck never showed off after any of his KO victories???
Deal with the fact that Evans is the better fighter, and quit whining about a guy that is exuberant after a huge win.

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