Comments on: What I learned from UFC 89 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/ Your Destination for Insider MMA News and Opinion Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:04:09 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: JBAR http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54392 JBAR Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:34:18 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54392 Having been a fan since UFC 1 the only thing that saddens me a bit is that the sport has evolved to the point where a strategy to stick and move and work for a decision victory can work. I think most of us appreciate a fight strategy if it is a plan to finish a fight either by KO or submission. I would not be nearly as upset if Bisping had said his strategy was to stick and move forcing Leben to get overly agressive so he could KO him. The same go's for the lay and prey, I do not mind a technical ground battle if the fighter is working to finish the fight versus just holding his opponent down and controlling him. Having been a fan since UFC 1 the only thing that saddens me a bit is that the sport has evolved to the point where a strategy to stick and move and work for a decision victory can work. I think most of us appreciate a fight strategy if it is a plan to finish a fight either by KO or submission. I would not be nearly as upset if Bisping had said his strategy was to stick and move forcing Leben to get overly agressive so he could KO him. The same go’s for the lay and prey, I do not mind a technical ground battle if the fighter is working to finish the fight versus just holding his opponent down and controlling him.

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]]> By: monsoon http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54389 monsoon Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:01:19 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54389 Well, I agree wit the point in the article that the reason for making Bisping vs. Leben the main event was marketing in the UK. And I don't care whether a fight is announced 'main eivent' or not. Much of the talking through the comments on the article seems a bit uneducated to me - just like the article paragraphs of Bisping vs. Leben fight itself: the fight was not agreat fight, since the two fighter each had only one strategy, Bisping to 'counter', Leben to brawl. Non of them really succeded, and other than by interpreting the face of Leben the decision was absolutely not convincing. Of course, Bisping lokked less damaged in the fight, but as far as I remember UFC judging rules the decision could easily have favoured Leben. He was trying to win by finishing Bisping, Bisping was not trying to finish Leben. Hence 'octagon control', 'agression', and takedowns should have counted for Leben. Obviously he knew in advance that the only way he could have won on UK soil was by finishing Bisping - just compare Bisping vs. Hamill. The 'boring fight' and the complaints for Bisping not trying to finish the fight should rather be dircted to UFC rules and fighting system than to Bispings strategy. He knew he would win the decision if not obviously dominated by his opponent (on the ground) or knocked down severly every round... he was fighting in the UK for UK marketing. So, why take the risk and trade direct punches with Leben? On the other hand, Bisping obviously had no tools to get Leban into serious trouble - not once. Solution: adopt PRIDE fighting system and judging system, and/or encourage judges to rate bouts without a finish as even (after an overtime period), or re-introduce tournaments with multiple fights one night/without much time in between. Alternative Solution: count on spectators that want so see a sports event rather than a bloody bar-style brawl of pure agression and a KO (in the obove comments: not too many, but some e.g. 'adamsFamily' a few post obove this) - but i assume that would lead MMA back into a finacial decline: most people love these MMA events just for 'brutal action', bloody elbows and KOs... sad but true. So, my opinion on the article: neither Vera nor Bisping or Leben looked bad in their fights. If Vera was that overrated, Jardine looked bad in having so much trouble to earn a decision. Bisping (so far) and Leben are not real good fighters, both are more or less one-dimensional, Bisping shurely is being protected and marketing-wise built on. Both will never be amongst the top 10 of their weghtclass (well, Bisping might be young enough to advance a bit if being protected long enough). Jardine on the other hand is a potential top ten fighter who will always hav the chance to win against anybody - but with his arsenal shown recently not in a sustainable way. Just like Lidell, their Styles where good enough (so this did not result in any title chances for Jardine in the past) as long as striking/stand up tactics where underdeveloped in the UFC. There always was a good chance for quite educated punchers an kickers with good takedown defence against brawlers as well as technically poor punching wrestlers and ground wizards. With guys like Evans, Griffin, Jackson and many other at LHW there chances seem fairly diminuished. In so far Vera did't appear that bad against Jardine, anyone who does'nt quit or get finished while trading with Jardine does quite well. But Vera doesn't have the tools for title aspiratinons yet, obviously. Over all: markteing to a 'fighter from my country/region' group as well as a 'knock out highlight' mass audience, combined with a technical decision-oriented-game-plan favouring judging system will lead to fights like bisping-leben an the likes. At least implement clear (as far as possible) Point systems, at least. I don't need to hear any more discussions like "is an attempted submission more worthy in the eyes of the judges than a submission escape?" from Goldberg/Rogan or reasoning about the favors of "backpedaling". I always read in these areas the judging should account for "aggression" and "effective striking", not he overall game plans of the fighters. UFC and company, since you won't quit on the mass marketing strategies, Change the rules! No more 10-point-must rounds! 10-minute first rounds! Draws and rematches if necessary! Well, I agree wit the point in the article that the reason for making Bisping vs. Leben the main event was marketing in the UK. And I don’t care whether a fight is announced ‘main eivent’ or not.
Much of the talking through the comments on the article seems a bit uneducated to me – just like the article paragraphs of Bisping vs. Leben fight itself: the fight was not agreat fight, since the two fighter each had only one strategy, Bisping to ‘counter’, Leben to brawl. Non of them really succeded, and other than by interpreting the face of Leben the decision was absolutely not convincing. Of course, Bisping lokked less damaged in the fight, but as far as I remember UFC judging rules the decision could easily have favoured Leben. He was trying to win by finishing Bisping, Bisping was not trying to finish Leben. Hence ‘octagon control’, ‘agression’, and takedowns should have counted for Leben. Obviously he knew in advance that the only way he could have won on UK soil was by finishing Bisping – just compare Bisping vs. Hamill.
The ‘boring fight’ and the complaints for Bisping not trying to finish the fight should rather be dircted to UFC rules and fighting system than to Bispings strategy. He knew he would win the decision if not obviously dominated by his opponent (on the ground) or knocked down severly every round… he was fighting in the UK for UK marketing. So, why take the risk and trade direct punches with Leben? On the other hand, Bisping obviously had no tools to get Leban into serious trouble – not once.
Solution: adopt PRIDE fighting system and judging system, and/or encourage judges to rate bouts without a finish as even (after an overtime period), or re-introduce tournaments with multiple fights one night/without much time in between.
Alternative Solution: count on spectators that want so see a sports event rather than a bloody bar-style brawl of pure agression and a KO (in the obove comments: not too many, but some e.g. ‘adamsFamily’ a few post obove this) – but i assume that would lead MMA back into a finacial decline: most people love these MMA events just for ‘brutal action’, bloody elbows and KOs… sad but true.

So, my opinion on the article: neither Vera nor Bisping or Leben looked bad in their fights. If Vera was that overrated, Jardine looked bad in having so much trouble to earn a decision. Bisping (so far) and Leben are not real good fighters, both are more or less one-dimensional, Bisping shurely is being protected and marketing-wise built on. Both will never be amongst the top 10 of their weghtclass (well, Bisping might be young enough to advance a bit if being protected long enough).

Jardine on the other hand is a potential top ten fighter who will always hav the chance to win against anybody – but with his arsenal shown recently not in a sustainable way. Just like Lidell, their Styles where good enough (so this did not result in any title chances for Jardine in the past) as long as striking/stand up tactics where underdeveloped in the UFC. There always was a good chance for quite educated punchers an kickers with good takedown defence against brawlers as well as technically poor punching wrestlers and ground wizards. With guys like Evans, Griffin, Jackson and many other at LHW there chances seem fairly diminuished. In so far Vera did’t appear that bad against Jardine, anyone who does’nt quit or get finished while trading with Jardine does quite well. But Vera doesn’t have the tools for title aspiratinons yet, obviously.

Over all: markteing to a ‘fighter from my country/region’ group as well as a ‘knock out highlight’ mass audience, combined with a technical decision-oriented-game-plan favouring judging system will lead to fights like bisping-leben an the likes. At least implement clear (as far as possible) Point systems, at least. I don’t need to hear any more discussions like “is an attempted submission more worthy in the eyes of the judges than a submission escape?” from Goldberg/Rogan or reasoning about the favors of “backpedaling”. I always read in these areas the judging should account for “aggression” and “effective striking”, not he overall game plans of the fighters.
UFC and company, since you won’t quit on the mass marketing strategies, Change the rules! No more 10-point-must rounds! 10-minute first rounds! Draws and rematches if necessary!

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]]> By: Shatner http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54302 Shatner Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:15:45 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54302 What I learned from UFC 89 is that it's right up there with the worst UFC events ever! What I learned from UFC 89 is that it’s right up there with the worst UFC events ever!

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]]> By: Rich http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54104 Rich Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:41:16 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54104 I would just say to Anrest that you are obviously not a fighter. Styles make Fights. I would just say to Anrest that you are obviously not a fighter. Styles make Fights.

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]]> By: AdamsFamily http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54099 AdamsFamily Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:07:38 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54099 What frustrates me about this sport and its fans - is how we seem to expect every fight to be the greatest fight we've ever seen and represent fantastic value for money. I dont really follow a team in (UK) football, though I know the game well enough, and 80% of matches are very dull and uneventful (and they last nearly two hours) and this is one of the most successful finacial games in the world if the most. So we all would like to witness exiting fights - but I cant help feeling the majority of people who post comment here are looking for quick standup fights with spectacular KO's only between american fighters preferably. They will do down any fighters who implements a gameplan and stick to it. I think you have to look at the event as a whole to judge it objectively. On the televised fights we had a (good) submission, a (good) war, a (decent) T knockout (carwin) and a technical fight even if it was the headline. All in all - I'd say that an evening of Mixed Martial Arts. If you are obsessed to see bloody KO's time afrter time then go to a pub in the north of england after a football derby. And whats more Randy Couture fights numerous technical 5 round fights with a specific gameplan - nobody complains and pays to see him. What frustrates me about this sport and its fans – is how we seem to expect every fight to be the greatest fight we’ve ever seen and represent fantastic value for money. I dont really follow a team in (UK) football, though I know the game well enough, and 80% of matches are very dull and uneventful (and they last nearly two hours) and this is one of the most successful finacial games in the world if the most.
So we all would like to witness exiting fights – but I cant help feeling the majority of people who post comment here are looking for quick standup fights with spectacular KO’s only between american fighters preferably. They will do down any fighters who implements a gameplan and stick to it.
I think you have to look at the event as a whole to judge it objectively. On the televised fights we had a (good) submission, a (good) war, a (decent) T knockout (carwin) and a technical fight even if it was the headline. All in all – I’d say that an evening of Mixed Martial Arts. If you are obsessed to see bloody KO’s time afrter time then go to a pub in the north of england after a football derby.
And whats more Randy Couture fights numerous technical 5 round fights with a specific gameplan – nobody complains and pays to see him.

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]]> By: Stan the Caddy http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54025 Stan the Caddy Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:24:39 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54025 This is the type of writing I've come to expect from this blog. Filled with lots of hyperbole and not much substance. This is the type of writing I’ve come to expect from this blog. Filled with lots of hyperbole and not much substance.

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]]> By: Imbecile http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54023 Imbecile Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:30:19 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54023 What I learned from this article: very little! You overstate your case on Vera, and completely discount what a talent he looked like in his first several fights at HW. Sure, he hasn't looked good recently, but you make it seem like there is no cause to think he is any good. Overhyped...maybe. Your criticism overstated...completely. Same thing with Bisping. He fought a boring fight, for sure. And saying your gameplan is to go for a unanimous decision is just pathetic! But that doesn't discount that he is a talented fighter, and until this fight, he did destroy his opposition at 185. He even stated himself he isn't quite ready for a title shot, but apparently he will get a step up in competition with the winner of Franklin/Hendo, so we will get to really guage his skills then. But you make him sound like he is some kind of joke, when the reality is he is a talented fighter on the cusp of top ten status at 185. I didn't like the way he fought last night, but if he keeps improving, he may be a big headliner one day. The consistent theme of this article is that the UFC is doing the same thing as EliteXC and hyping fighters who deserve no hype just so the can score with a target audience. Does the UFC want to have successful British and Philipino fighters for their shows in these countries? Sure. But to compare it to Gary/Jared Shaw's nonsense with Kimbo Slice is just stupid. Maybe, just maybe, Joe Rogan really thinks that Brandon Vera has the skills to be a monster in the UFC, whether Vera showed that or not. Maybe Mike Goldberg really thinks Bisping has looked fantastic at 185. Those things are pretty reasonable things to think. What is not reasonable is to say Kimbo has the best stand-up in MMA, and if he were to box, he would be a top ten HW boxer right now. I don't think Gary/Jared really believe that nonsense, and nobody thinks it is reasonable to say those things. To compare the too is idiotic. To add to how stupid that comparison was, you only saw what you wanted to see, and neglected the positive comments made about Vera and Bisping's opponents. Were it not for your insightful blurb about Luis Cane/Sokoudjou, I would be sending an invoice along for the time I spent reading your poorly thought out opinions. What I learned from this article: very little!

You overstate your case on Vera, and completely discount what a talent he looked like in his first several fights at HW. Sure, he hasn’t looked good recently, but you make it seem like there is no cause to think he is any good. Overhyped…maybe. Your criticism overstated…completely.

Same thing with Bisping. He fought a boring fight, for sure. And saying your gameplan is to go for a unanimous decision is just pathetic! But that doesn’t discount that he is a talented fighter, and until this fight, he did destroy his opposition at 185. He even stated himself he isn’t quite ready for a title shot, but apparently he will get a step up in competition with the winner of Franklin/Hendo, so we will get to really guage his skills then. But you make him sound like he is some kind of joke, when the reality is he is a talented fighter on the cusp of top ten status at 185. I didn’t like the way he fought last night, but if he keeps improving, he may be a big headliner one day.

The consistent theme of this article is that the UFC is doing the same thing as EliteXC and hyping fighters who deserve no hype just so the can score with a target audience. Does the UFC want to have successful British and Philipino fighters for their shows in these countries? Sure. But to compare it to Gary/Jared Shaw’s nonsense with Kimbo Slice is just stupid.

Maybe, just maybe, Joe Rogan really thinks that Brandon Vera has the skills to be a monster in the UFC, whether Vera showed that or not.

Maybe Mike Goldberg really thinks Bisping has looked fantastic at 185.

Those things are pretty reasonable things to think. What is not reasonable is to say Kimbo has the best stand-up in MMA, and if he were to box, he would be a top ten HW boxer right now. I don’t think Gary/Jared really believe that nonsense, and nobody thinks it is reasonable to say those things. To compare the too is idiotic. To add to how stupid that comparison was, you only saw what you wanted to see, and neglected the positive comments made about Vera and Bisping’s opponents.

Were it not for your insightful blurb about Luis Cane/Sokoudjou, I would be sending an invoice along for the time I spent reading your poorly thought out opinions.

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]]> By: Mike Wolfe http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54017 Mike Wolfe Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:31:39 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54017 Vera's style didn't lend itself exploiting Jardine's weakness. Jardine has a hard time with fighters like Houston and Wanderlai who aggressively push the pace. Vera is more of a counter striker, and that plays to Jardine's strengths. Ask Chuck Liddell. Is Vera overrated? Interesting question, but that doesn't give Jardine the credit he deserves imo. The Bisping fight was boring? Not to me. Only Anderson Silva has ko'd Leben, who has an amazing chin. Bisping's game plan was right on the money for any fighter other than the best pound for pound fighter (Silva) on the planet. Leben was frustrated and largely ineffectual. Supposedly he 's working on his ground game, but he didn't make much of an effort to take Bisping down. Bisping has finished other fights, so he doesn't deserve criticism for failing to ko Leben. I'm no Bisping fan boy, but his striking looked pretty good. Vera’s style didn’t lend itself exploiting Jardine’s weakness. Jardine has a hard time with fighters like Houston and Wanderlai who aggressively push the pace. Vera is more of a counter striker, and that plays to Jardine’s strengths. Ask Chuck Liddell. Is Vera overrated? Interesting question, but that doesn’t give Jardine the credit he deserves imo.

The Bisping fight was boring? Not to me. Only Anderson Silva has ko’d Leben, who has an amazing chin. Bisping’s game plan was right on the money for any fighter other than the best pound for pound fighter (Silva) on the planet. Leben was frustrated and largely ineffectual. Supposedly he ’s working on his ground game, but he didn’t make much of an effort to take Bisping down. Bisping has finished other fights, so he doesn’t deserve criticism for failing to ko Leben. I’m no Bisping fan boy, but his striking looked pretty good.

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]]> By: dsid http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54015 dsid Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:53:09 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54015 Bisping clearly won the fight and yes, he had a game plan and executed it well. But those saying it was BORING are right on the mark. Bisping seemed like a much more exciting fighter earlier in his career. Now he just runs, runs, runs, while trying to out point the opposition, which is just weak. And no, it's not sour grapes at Leben losing (I don't even like Leben and I don't think he's a very good fighter). Trying to out point a guy by running is fine for boxing, but lame for MMA. And that goes for freakin' Machida, as well. He's good, but his fights are boring as hell. Here's a vote for any fighter that actually steps in there trying to end it. And forget the guys who just want to play it safe and win a little decision (that goes for the lay and prayers, just it does for hte runners like Bisping & Machida). Bisping clearly won the fight and yes, he had a game plan and executed it well. But those saying it was BORING are right on the mark.

Bisping seemed like a much more exciting fighter earlier in his career. Now he just runs, runs, runs, while trying to out point the opposition, which is just weak.

And no, it’s not sour grapes at Leben losing (I don’t even like Leben and I don’t think he’s a very good fighter). Trying to out point a guy by running is fine for boxing, but lame for MMA. And that goes for freakin’ Machida, as well. He’s good, but his fights are boring as hell.

Here’s a vote for any fighter that actually steps in there trying to end it. And forget the guys who just want to play it safe and win a little decision (that goes for the lay and prayers, just it does for hte runners like Bisping & Machida).

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]]> By: djd http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/19/what-i-learned-from-ufc-89/comment-page-1/#comment-54010 djd Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:18:44 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=8102#comment-54010 I agree with most of the stuff this guy wrote in this post....Leben moved forward the whole fight....No way should Bisping get a title shot....His next fight should be Jason Mcdonald, Okami, or Damien Maia or however the hell u spell his name....If he should beat one of them...take on Dan Henderson or Marquardt.....If he is lucky enough to beat either of them...get a title shot in which he will get knocked out by round 2 for sure by the spider.... I agree with most of the stuff this guy wrote in this post….Leben moved forward the whole fight….No way should Bisping get a title shot….His next fight should be Jason Mcdonald, Okami, or Damien Maia or however the hell u spell his name….If he should beat one of them…take on Dan Henderson or Marquardt…..If he is lucky enough to beat either of them…get a title shot in which he will get knocked out by round 2 for sure by the spider….

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