Comments on: PRIDE’s Brazilian Super Heroes Appear to Have Lost their Special Powers

By: s00nertp

s00nertp — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 00:38:03 +0000

well, I was just giving the example of one weight class for 1,2,3.

In 4, I opened it up to all weight classes and listed a few obvious choices.

You are right though BJ Penn is another example of a fighter who has it all.

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By: yourmomma

yourmomma — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:06:29 +0000

Game planning game planning GAME PLANNING..

s00nertp BJ Penn should be added into your 2nd,3rd, and 4th.

How can you leave him out?

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By: s00nertp

s00nertp — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:21:07 +0000

Sam,
This article was brilliant, I wish I could have articulated my feelings as well as you did.

Every point you made was right next to my heart. Wanderlei and Nogueria were 2 of the first fighters I saw that dazzled & amazed me, though for different reasons. They were very much similar to how others feel about Michael Jordan for me. Sure I admired Gracie, and the old school UFC originals.. but these were the brilliant new 3rd generation fighters that defined the sport for me.

Thank you, I appreciate how you honored their legacy and voiced my feelings.

(I believe there are 4 generations of fighters:
1) Gracie, the JJ generation. He proved you needed a ground game (either JJ defense or JJ skills) to win.
2) Sakuraba, JJ/Standup. He proved you needed ground + standup.
3) Wanderlei, Muay Thai. He proved it was most effective with ground game, standup, and Muay Thai combos.
4) Miguel Torres, GSP, Anderson Silva, Urijah Faber. They have it all: JJ (not just ground defense), standup combos, vicious Muay Thai.)

You dont need to be 4th generation to win, but those are the Michael Jordans of MMA. Sure 2nd generation fighters like Rashad will win and move up, but that is not what I love. I love the 4th generation wizards that can do it all.

Nogueria to me was an unusual 3rd generation fighter with the best defensive technique against standup & Muay Thai.

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By: ultmma

ultmma — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 03:30:12 +0000

Age catches up with all great athletes. These two have been through nothing but wars in their career.

This isn’t a Pride vs. UFC thing lol with the explicative cares any more

Nog needs to fighting in the low 230s for him to be successful and Wandy needs to drop down to 185 or become a gate keeper for 205 a la Tito Ortiz with his fights versus Forrest, Rashad and Machida in 06-07

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By: jimbo

jimbo — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:27:52 +0000

The Pride drug polices / difference in striking rules are certainly valid points.
I dont believe its a age thing for Nog and Wand as much as they have been fighting for so long. Really it just wasnot either of thier nights. Wand got caught and id love to see a rematch at the end of 09. Also Nog vs Coture & maybe Wand vs Franklin or Chuck need to happen in 09 !!!

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By: john

john — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:50:11 +0000

the way i see it is, randy,chuck,hughes,wandy,nog,tito,ken shamrock, frank shamrock,coleman,randleman, severn, royse gracie, basically all the idols of the past should retire, and then bammmmmm, bring them all back for one card and i guarantee the biggest buy of all times, make it happen dana

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By: Davey D

Davey D — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:39:27 +0000

One thing Pride FC did for me was make me realize just how big this sport can become. PRIDE filled super area’s in Japan with 50,000 plus on the regular. Even though it was just Japan. Attendence like that is amazing. The two show’s in the US were excellent as well.

Furthermore, the game was played far different than that in the Octagon. The UFC is now the one to carry MMA and showcase it at the highest level. The game might be played different in many places but the Octagon is where best compete today. All road’s lead there to reign supreme (with Fedor as an exception, even he should join).

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By: JJ Docker

JJ Docker — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:20:10 +0000

I agree with Imbecile. It may be pedantic but I’ll put it out there that if you don’t know that Dana’s surname is spelt White and not ‘Wight’, you won’t really know too much about MMA, let alone the UFC.
And in response to your point, records have little to do with how talented a fighter is. Randy doesn’t have the best record statistically but that’s because he’s spent most of his career fighting great fighters and/or champions of the sport. Comparing records is an inaccurate and definitely moronic way of deciding who are the better fighters.

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By: Imbecile

Imbecile — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:53:08 +0000

Sam, I share yoru sentiment on both Wandy and Nogueira. But for me, it is beyond just Pride fighters, but the fall of the whole generation of fighters that really built the sport into the mainstream. Chuck Liddell has lost a step or two. Wandy looks like a shell of his former self, and no longer ripples with muscles or fights with the fury he once did. Nogueira looks like the wars he has put his body through have finally caught up with him, as he moves very slowly and looked like he saw none of the punches coming in. Matt Hughes looks barely interested in the sport, and for a guy who was so dominatingly powerful for so many years, he looked small and weak compared to Alves. CroCop is already nearly two years into a complete free-fall of his career, and it is hard to explain to new fans exactly how frightening a fighter he really was at one time. Randy Couture… well, surprisingly the oldest of this bunch may have the most left in him, but his time is running out and Lesnar presents an obstacle that may just have been too great for The Natural.

Just like it was sad to see Jordan in his final comeback, when he wasn’t the dominant player he once was, it is sad to see this old guard getting outclassed by the new young guns. It is exciting for the new fighters, but for those of us that watched these guys grow up and now fade out in the sport, it is a bit of a sad thing. I will always love Nogueira vs. Sapp, Couture vs. Rizzo, Hughes vs. Newton, Wandy vs. Sakuraba, and all of those key fights that helped make this sport what it is.

@ ape – I guess no matter what the topic, there is some moron on here that either loves or hates Dana White so much they make everything about him. For the record, it was only a few months ago that everyone was all over White for over-hyping Anderson Silva, and now, according to you, he promotes Lesnar while ignoring Silva? He also said it was his most exciting moment as UFC President to get Wanderlei Silva in the UFC. So much for your assessment that he hates all former Pride fighters. You sir, are a complete moron.

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By: ape

ape — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:53:50 +0000

That is B S! I guess if your not kissing Dana Wight’s A$$ your not a good fighter in his eyes!
Nogueira is 31-4
Wanderlei is 32-8
Liddell is only 21-5
Quinton 28-7
Now you tell me whow is the better fighters.
Let me tell you one more thing about Mr. Dana Wight I have seen he hates everyone form PRIDE except for his puppet Quinton. He talks more about Brock
than he dose Anderson Silva.
Nogeira & Wanderlei are two of many that still Respected, Skilled and Entertaining fighters in MMA.

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By: mike wolfe

mike wolfe — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:17:31 +0000

In addition to the excellent points already made, consider that MMA is different than most other sports, especially team sports. In other sports stars arise over time, usually several years or seasons. But in MMA today you have a wealth of highly skilled and conditioned athletes, and the margin of victory is the split second necessary to slip a punch and counter or to recognize and exploit a submission opportunity. The landscape changes quicker, and a win over an opponent does not predict the outcome of the next fight.

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By: JJ Docker

JJ Docker — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:59:53 +0000

“This love for Pride always boggles my mind. Pride was one step away from pro wrestling. Tons of easy fights to pad records. Fighters being paid extra if they LOST to the bigger name. Less popular fighters being forced to cut weight beyond the limits of their division just so they’d be weak for a fight. Tournaments that were highly suspect in the favor of the star fighters. Refs and judges that were obviously favoring popular fighters (they made American refs and judges look positively fantastic by comparison). The list goes on and on.

Pride was shady as hell and their “superhero” stars were more hype than reality. Now, they have to prove themselves and some of them are doing well while others are finding that they are closer to mediocre than super without Pride’s “special effects” making them look good.”

Couldn’t have said it better myself. The problem is that most MMA journalists/experts became interested in MMA when the UFC was putting on poor shows with a lack of real talent whilsts Pride was putting on spectacular cards with fascinating tournaments with properly (or overly) marketed fighters. The choice was an easy one; Pirde was amazing compared to the UFC at that point. As a result all of these people hold the older popular fighters in high regard and I’m sure, at times, this can distort their actual ability. Take Paul Filho, for example, a year and a half ago he was ranked 2nd or 3rd in most MW rankings and now the same people that constructed these rankings are conceding that perhaps he was never as good as everyone thought. Take Shogun Rua, for another example, looked invincible in Pride but gassed horribly and then was choked out in his first fight in the UFC. Take Cro Cop, for another, beat a can and then lost twice. What I am not saying is that all these are talentless or poor fighters or that all UFC fighters are amazing, this is not a Pride vs UFC article and if i had to choose between the two I would choose Pride anyday, but what I AM saying is that MMA writers perhaps need to possibly at least consider that the fighters they loved in Pride back when MMA was still evolving might not be quite as good as they were led to believe. I understand it is hard to get this perspective right when you are comparing fighters across brands, across countries, with different rules, a cage and a ring, different weight classes, and whatever else. But I don’t think Wand and Nog are as good as everyone thought. I don’t think Shogun is. I don’t think Gono is. I don’t think Cro Cop is. The list goes on and you get my point. Writers have to try and overlook their instinctive tendencies to support, favor or idolize Pride fighters that they fell in love with as they fell in love with the sport of MMA. I know exactly how difficult this, as I am faced with the same problem – I thought Nog would kill Mir and Wand would Rampage, but based on the evidence of last night, it is realistic.

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By: Dr.Stoppage

Dr.Stoppage — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:32:29 +0000

One thing about Pride that will always stand out was the mystique.
The fact that it was in Japan,that it was difficult (for me anyways) to gain access too, reading internet reports about it,then finally finding a guy to get that video tape from made the whole thing an incredible experience ,and each event was always a way over the top spectacle,and just blew my mind.
Alot of those fighters were Superheroes at the time.
In some ways it was like watching an effing Van Damme movie.
Except it was REAL.(well,you know what I mean)
I think there might be something to the fact that in Japan some fighters are treated and revered like superheroes,and in America they might not be .
Either way,it’s cool to see Rampage get some satisfaction,and Mir get some personal redemption.
They both kinda sounded like they’d been whacked by the ole catharsis stick at the end of the night….facing their demons and all that.
Vandy and Big Nog still have some good match ups ahead of them,although they may not be in title contention again.

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By: Crash

Crash — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:19:30 +0000

Even if Nog never fights again, in my opinion he was the best fighter to ever step into a ring, I saw him in a adcc fight and he is a monster

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By: James

James — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:16:38 +0000

cb tapped …im with screw , in both fights vs amir he did the same quick tap …i hope the next time someone gets him in a sub (pref an arm bar or something limbworthy) they crank the shit out of it and hold on a little longer than necessary…and was it me or did he sound xtra gay in the post fight interview ?(not that there’s anything wrong with that)

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By: glock

glock — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:22:40 +0000

Maybe he was on auto pilot, I just read on MMAjunkie part of Rogans interview where he said,

“Following the bout, Dollaway told Rogan he didn’t actually remember his slick choke escape.

“I don’t remember it,” Dollaway said. “Maybe it was close, but I didn’t feel it. I got out, did what I needed to do and pounded him out.”

Blood flow to the brain slows , things start getting weird,autopilot from training kicks in and you “unconsciously”, involuntary “tap” then all of a sudden bloods flowing again and the autopilot has you pounding away ……

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By: screwface

screwface — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:58:29 +0000

i saw him tap once like he was thinking about tapping, but then changed his mind. same thing he did in his past few fights. subconsciously just wants to tap but when his brain realized what hes doin stops it from a full fledged tap :p just the way i saw it.

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By: glock

glock — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:25:06 +0000

I dunno , It seemed so obvious to me I started to jump up and the other guys just shot me a quizzical look as they kept fighting so I said “he tapped ! “”Did you see that?”
They said “no!” in 3 part harmony, so I figured it must have just been the Margaritas I was guzzling, and the rest is history as they say.
I can’t believe with all the millions of eyeballs on it that we’re the only ones that thought we saw that.
I guess it’s like the ole’ “if a tree falls in the forest and the ref doesn’t see it……”

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By: 5percentbodyfat

5percentbodyfat — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:12:45 +0000

Oh yeah one more thing before I get on out of here, for those talking about the UFC giving their fighters cup cakes, there is a HUGE difference.

Clearly with PRIDE , well after a fighter has become a star in the organization there would the fluffing up of a record filled with lesser fighters. The only fight I can actually think about that wasn’t a well put together fight in a fighter’s career after they were a star was maybe Babalou vs. Chuck…… and Cote and Silva, only because Silva emptied out his division.

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By: 5percentbodyfat

5percentbodyfat — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:08:36 +0000

Yeah, it was a blatant tap out, he double tapped. Someone needs to go back and look at the tape.

A couple more notes:

- to say Anderson Silva was a Pride fighter is like saying Roger Clemens was a NL pitcher since he had that year with the Astros.

- Are these guys getting to the end of their careers, maybe and does someone have a particular KO count maybe. But the correlation is there between the switch from UFC to Pride, and the difficulties that are arising. I believe for Wand it started when he started fighting in Vegas.

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