Comments on: Brady: Aoki and the lightweight rankings — stop the madness! http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/ Your Destination for Insider MMA News and Opinion Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:04:09 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Amigop http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-68189 Amigop Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:44:45 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-68189 IMO This rankings are a waste of time, we could argue all day if aoki could beat any of the ufc guys, but the truth is its highly unlikey any of them will fight. that being said i think aoki subs Gray Maynard, Sean Sherk, Kenny Florian, Roger Huerta, Tyson Griffin, Nate Diaz. the only person i can see giving him problems would be bj because of his boxing, its not good but its better than aokis, and the fact the jiu jitsu cancels out, so then it comes down to wrestling and bj has solid takedown defense and aokis takedowns arent the greatest. IMO This rankings are a waste of time, we could argue all day if aoki could beat any of the ufc guys, but the truth is its highly unlikey any of them will fight.

that being said i think aoki subs Gray Maynard, Sean Sherk, Kenny Florian, Roger Huerta, Tyson Griffin, Nate Diaz. the only person i can see giving him problems would be bj because of his boxing, its not good but its better than aokis, and the fact the jiu jitsu cancels out, so then it comes down to wrestling and bj has solid takedown defense and aokis takedowns arent the greatest.

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]]> By: madiq http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67924 madiq Sat, 07 Mar 2009 17:10:09 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67924 The problem with your analysis is that it's totally biased in favor of the notion that the "best" lightweight fighters fight in the UFC, when, historically speaking, that hasn't been the case. Rankings aren't conceived of -- with 100% subjectivity -- in a vacuum, they are a "snapshot in time" of the evolution of achievement. Thus, you can't have an ACTUAL top 10 without conceptualizing some proto-Top 10 which the fighters on the list had to beat in order to earn their spots. And therein lies the rub. The UFC went around 5 years without a lightweight division...that didn't mean there wasn't a Top 10. Indeed, what it meant is that the ENTIRE Top 10 was outside of the UFC, and when the UFC started its division, it needed to either acquire Top 10 fighters, or wait for the existing Top 10 fighters to lose, while its fighters gradually proved their mettle against non-Top 10 competition. That said, fighting non-top 10 guys doesn't necessarily mean you're fighting "inferior" competition, merely competition which hasn't acquired an extensive resume. And speaking of resumes, a fighter needs to accumulate quality wins in the division to get ranked; he doesn't have a Top 10 spot waiting for him in a lower weight class just because he was Top 10 in a higher one. So you ask why there are so many guys who fight in Japan in the Lightweight Top 10? Simple -- it's where the Top 10 lightweights WERE, and as those fighters lost, the fighters who won built their resumes off those wins. The UFC used two guys who were dropping down from welterweight to crown its Lightweight Champion, and that guy went a year before defending it, only to test positive for steroids in the win, then returned to get beat by BJ Penn. The circularity of the logic that says that BJ Penn, who beat the aforementioned fighter, as well as Jens Pulver (a fighter who has proven not to be an elite FEATHERWEIGHT) is the division's #1 guy is just as tenuous as the Aoki-Alvarez-Hansen-JZ musical chair, except, as someone previously mentioned, these guys proved their mettle in tournaments, fighting multiple times a year, without necessarily knowing who their opponents would be. Saying Clay Guida, Tyson Griffin, and Frankie Edgar should be ranked uses the same twisted circularity as the DREAM example, except those guys have been doing it on undercards, while the guys in Japan have been doing it in main events, with belts at stake. That's the essence of Top 10 rankings -- over time, the underrated become properly rated, and the overrated are exposed. You want this to happen immediately, and in favor of fighters you THINK are the best, but haven't proven it by BEATING the best. And that's just more subjective than rankings need to be. Madness indeed. The problem with your analysis is that it’s totally biased in favor of the notion that the “best” lightweight fighters fight in the UFC, when, historically speaking, that hasn’t been the case.

Rankings aren’t conceived of — with 100% subjectivity — in a vacuum, they are a “snapshot in time” of the evolution of achievement. Thus, you can’t have an ACTUAL top 10 without conceptualizing some proto-Top 10 which the fighters on the list had to beat in order to earn their spots.

And therein lies the rub. The UFC went around 5 years without a lightweight division…that didn’t mean there wasn’t a Top 10. Indeed, what it meant is that the ENTIRE Top 10 was outside of the UFC, and when the UFC started its division, it needed to either acquire Top 10 fighters, or wait for the existing Top 10 fighters to lose, while its fighters gradually proved their mettle against non-Top 10 competition. That said, fighting non-top 10 guys doesn’t necessarily mean you’re fighting “inferior” competition, merely competition which hasn’t acquired an extensive resume.

And speaking of resumes, a fighter needs to accumulate quality wins in the division to get ranked; he doesn’t have a Top 10 spot waiting for him in a lower weight class just because he was Top 10 in a higher one.

So you ask why there are so many guys who fight in Japan in the Lightweight Top 10? Simple — it’s where the Top 10 lightweights WERE, and as those fighters lost, the fighters who won built their resumes off those wins. The UFC used two guys who were dropping down from welterweight to crown its Lightweight Champion, and that guy went a year before defending it, only to test positive for steroids in the win, then returned to get beat by BJ Penn. The circularity of the logic that says that BJ Penn, who beat the aforementioned fighter, as well as Jens Pulver (a fighter who has proven not to be an elite FEATHERWEIGHT) is the division’s #1 guy is just as tenuous as the Aoki-Alvarez-Hansen-JZ musical chair, except, as someone previously mentioned, these guys proved their mettle in tournaments, fighting multiple times a year, without necessarily knowing who their opponents would be. Saying Clay Guida, Tyson Griffin, and Frankie Edgar should be ranked uses the same twisted circularity as the DREAM example, except those guys have been doing it on undercards, while the guys in Japan have been doing it in main events, with belts at stake.

That’s the essence of Top 10 rankings — over time, the underrated become properly rated, and the overrated are exposed. You want this to happen immediately, and in favor of fighters you THINK are the best, but haven’t proven it by BEATING the best. And that’s just more subjective than rankings need to be. Madness indeed.

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]]> By: cocoonofhorror http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67893 cocoonofhorror Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:27:15 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67893 for the record, the rankings are crap, but rankings are nothing more than one's opinion, so i wouldnt disagree, so much as i would post my own rankings for you to internally laugh about. [IMO] Maynard aint THAT good. Alvarez NEEDS to be on there somewhere, as does Diaz. Aoki should be higher, like 6. JT will shock people is he gets back to the UFC. [/IMO] for the record, the rankings are crap, but rankings are nothing more than one’s opinion, so i wouldnt disagree, so much as i would post my own rankings for you to internally laugh about. [IMO] Maynard aint THAT good. Alvarez NEEDS to be on there somewhere, as does Diaz. Aoki should be higher, like 6. JT will shock people is he gets back to the UFC. [/IMO]

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]]> By: cocoonofhorror http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67892 cocoonofhorror Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:19:37 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67892 lol @ the difference between rankings and opinions. enlighten us, please. lol @ the difference between rankings and opinions. enlighten us, please.

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]]> By: PoD135 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67876 PoD135 Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:41:53 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67876 Compare his list to the rest of the "extremely credible sources". Forget taking the consensus or average of the "extremely credible sources" rankings with their differing opinions, analysis, experience, and backgrounds. Just ask ONE man Cory ""Stop the Madness" Brady. Compare his list to the rest of the “extremely credible sources”.
Forget taking the consensus or average of the “extremely credible sources” rankings with their differing opinions, analysis, experience, and backgrounds.
Just ask ONE man Cory “”Stop the Madness” Brady.

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]]> By: MMASwami http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67867 MMASwami Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:19:43 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67867 That is easily one of the most ridiculous lists I've ever seen. Maybe you should take the time to learn the definition between ranking and opinions. That is easily one of the most ridiculous lists I’ve ever seen. Maybe you should take the time to learn the definition between ranking and opinions.

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]]> By: Mad Xyientist http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67865 Mad Xyientist Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:45:58 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67865 Congratulations on finding SpikeTV and your new love of Ultimate Fighting. I'm impressed that you managed to string so many words together and use boldface so well, but as far as MMA analysis, I have a mentally-challenged cocker spaniel (Tootsy) that made a better set of lightweight rankings. This was my favorite part: "I am absolutely not a “UFC fanboy”...I am as unbiased a fan of the sport as they come." Why would you feel the need to pre-emptively defend yourself of being biased with such a solid piece of journalism as this one? Congratulations on finding SpikeTV and your new love of Ultimate Fighting. I’m impressed that you managed to string so many words together and use boldface so well, but as far as MMA analysis, I have a mentally-challenged cocker spaniel (Tootsy) that made a better set of lightweight rankings.

This was my favorite part:

“I am absolutely not a “UFC fanboy”…I am as unbiased a fan of the sport as they come.”

Why would you feel the need to pre-emptively defend yourself of being biased with such a solid piece of journalism as this one?

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]]> By: cocoonofhorror http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67863 cocoonofhorror Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:28:44 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67863 great article. the Aoki hype is annoying as hell, and needs to stop. Nate Diaz would masticate on him. great article. the Aoki hype is annoying as hell, and needs to stop. Nate Diaz would masticate on him.

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]]> By: kidneybeans http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67856 kidneybeans Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:50:21 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67856 theoretically* looks a little better but probably still wrong theoretically* looks a little better but probably still wrong

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]]> By: kidneybeans http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/03/06/brady-aoki-and-the-lightweight-rankings-stop-the-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-67854 kidneybeans Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:47:32 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=12630#comment-67854 I certainly won't argue any of your rankings largely becuase I don't really care about rankings all that much. But I will suggest that the guys from DREAM and WVR are given so much credit by those that publish rankings because they have been crowned champion, or in some cases eliminated, through a tournament process. Many people, myself included, see tournaments as the best way to determine champs or number one contenders. I don't personally see any problem with your logic on the rankings you came up with but I can also understand giving more weight to fighters who's opponents are based on progressing through the rounds of a tournament, theorietically making each opponent more difficult than the previous one. In the UFC they fight who they are told to fight, in a tournament they fight who they have to fight. Of course the argument that the UFC contains a far greater level of competiton top to bottom is very legitimate. I'm just saying I see why tournament winners would be ranked very highly. And I know Aoki didn't win his tourney, but that is where your triangle comes into play. I certainly won’t argue any of your rankings largely becuase I don’t really care about rankings all that much. But I will suggest that the guys from DREAM and WVR are given so much credit by those that publish rankings because they have been crowned champion, or in some cases eliminated, through a tournament process.

Many people, myself included, see tournaments as the best way to determine champs or number one contenders. I don’t personally see any problem with your logic on the rankings you came up with but I can also understand giving more weight to fighters who’s opponents are based on progressing through the rounds of a tournament, theorietically making each opponent more difficult than the previous one. In the UFC they fight who they are told to fight, in a tournament they fight who they have to fight.

Of course the argument that the UFC contains a far greater level of competiton top to bottom is very legitimate. I’m just saying I see why tournament winners would be ranked very highly. And I know Aoki didn’t win his tourney, but that is where your triangle comes into play.

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