Comments on: Brady: Aoki and the lightweight rankings — stop the madness!

By: Sergio Hernandez

Sergio Hernandez — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:16:21 +0000

Just thought I’d Lazarus this post as Cory was saying A YEAR AGO what everyone else is just getting around to thinking now: Aoki is an overrated, one-trick pony.

By: Amigop

Amigop — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:44:45 +0000

IMO This rankings are a waste of time, we could argue all day if aoki could beat any of the ufc guys, but the truth is its highly unlikey any of them will fight.

that being said i think aoki subs Gray Maynard, Sean Sherk, Kenny Florian, Roger Huerta, Tyson Griffin, Nate Diaz. the only person i can see giving him problems would be bj because of his boxing, its not good but its better than aokis, and the fact the jiu jitsu cancels out, so then it comes down to wrestling and bj has solid takedown defense and aokis takedowns arent the greatest.

By: madiq

madiq — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 17:10:09 +0000

The problem with your analysis is that it’s totally biased in favor of the notion that the “best” lightweight fighters fight in the UFC, when, historically speaking, that hasn’t been the case.

Rankings aren’t conceived of — with 100% subjectivity — in a vacuum, they are a “snapshot in time” of the evolution of achievement. Thus, you can’t have an ACTUAL top 10 without conceptualizing some proto-Top 10 which the fighters on the list had to beat in order to earn their spots.

And therein lies the rub. The UFC went around 5 years without a lightweight division…that didn’t mean there wasn’t a Top 10. Indeed, what it meant is that the ENTIRE Top 10 was outside of the UFC, and when the UFC started its division, it needed to either acquire Top 10 fighters, or wait for the existing Top 10 fighters to lose, while its fighters gradually proved their mettle against non-Top 10 competition. That said, fighting non-top 10 guys doesn’t necessarily mean you’re fighting “inferior” competition, merely competition which hasn’t acquired an extensive resume.

And speaking of resumes, a fighter needs to accumulate quality wins in the division to get ranked; he doesn’t have a Top 10 spot waiting for him in a lower weight class just because he was Top 10 in a higher one.

So you ask why there are so many guys who fight in Japan in the Lightweight Top 10? Simple — it’s where the Top 10 lightweights WERE, and as those fighters lost, the fighters who won built their resumes off those wins. The UFC used two guys who were dropping down from welterweight to crown its Lightweight Champion, and that guy went a year before defending it, only to test positive for steroids in the win, then returned to get beat by BJ Penn. The circularity of the logic that says that BJ Penn, who beat the aforementioned fighter, as well as Jens Pulver (a fighter who has proven not to be an elite FEATHERWEIGHT) is the division’s #1 guy is just as tenuous as the Aoki-Alvarez-Hansen-JZ musical chair, except, as someone previously mentioned, these guys proved their mettle in tournaments, fighting multiple times a year, without necessarily knowing who their opponents would be. Saying Clay Guida, Tyson Griffin, and Frankie Edgar should be ranked uses the same twisted circularity as the DREAM example, except those guys have been doing it on undercards, while the guys in Japan have been doing it in main events, with belts at stake.

That’s the essence of Top 10 rankings — over time, the underrated become properly rated, and the overrated are exposed. You want this to happen immediately, and in favor of fighters you THINK are the best, but haven’t proven it by BEATING the best. And that’s just more subjective than rankings need to be. Madness indeed.

By: cocoonofhorror

cocoonofhorror — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:27:15 +0000

for the record, the rankings are crap, but rankings are nothing more than one’s opinion, so i wouldnt disagree, so much as i would post my own rankings for you to internally laugh about. [IMO] Maynard aint THAT good. Alvarez NEEDS to be on there somewhere, as does Diaz. Aoki should be higher, like 6. JT will shock people is he gets back to the UFC. [/IMO]

By: cocoonofhorror

cocoonofhorror — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:19:37 +0000

lol @ the difference between rankings and opinions. enlighten us, please.

By: PoD135

PoD135 — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:41:53 +0000

Compare his list to the rest of the “extremely credible sources”.
Forget taking the consensus or average of the “extremely credible sources” rankings with their differing opinions, analysis, experience, and backgrounds.
Just ask ONE man Cory “”Stop the Madness” Brady.

By: MMASwami

MMASwami — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:19:43 +0000

That is easily one of the most ridiculous lists I’ve ever seen. Maybe you should take the time to learn the definition between ranking and opinions.

By: Mad Xyientist

Mad Xyientist — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:45:58 +0000

Congratulations on finding SpikeTV and your new love of Ultimate Fighting. I’m impressed that you managed to string so many words together and use boldface so well, but as far as MMA analysis, I have a mentally-challenged cocker spaniel (Tootsy) that made a better set of lightweight rankings.

This was my favorite part:

“I am absolutely not a “UFC fanboy”…I am as unbiased a fan of the sport as they come.”

Why would you feel the need to pre-emptively defend yourself of being biased with such a solid piece of journalism as this one?

By: cocoonofhorror

cocoonofhorror — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:28:44 +0000

great article. the Aoki hype is annoying as hell, and needs to stop. Nate Diaz would masticate on him.

By: kidneybeans

kidneybeans — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:50:21 +0000

theoretically* looks a little better but probably still wrong

By: kidneybeans

kidneybeans — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:47:32 +0000

I certainly won’t argue any of your rankings largely becuase I don’t really care about rankings all that much. But I will suggest that the guys from DREAM and WVR are given so much credit by those that publish rankings because they have been crowned champion, or in some cases eliminated, through a tournament process.

Many people, myself included, see tournaments as the best way to determine champs or number one contenders. I don’t personally see any problem with your logic on the rankings you came up with but I can also understand giving more weight to fighters who’s opponents are based on progressing through the rounds of a tournament, theorietically making each opponent more difficult than the previous one. In the UFC they fight who they are told to fight, in a tournament they fight who they have to fight.

Of course the argument that the UFC contains a far greater level of competiton top to bottom is very legitimate. I’m just saying I see why tournament winners would be ranked very highly. And I know Aoki didn’t win his tourney, but that is where your triangle comes into play.

By: dpk

dpk — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 17:18:31 +0000

Thank you for this article, I’ve also felt that the UFC LW division was being underrated by the “experts” for along time

1. B.J. Penn
2. Sean Sherk
3. Kenny Florian
4. Gray Maynard
5. Shinya Aoki
6. Frankie Edgar
7. Josh Thomson
8. Diego Sanchez
9. Tyson Griffin
10. Eddie Alverez

Guida and Jim Miller are two knocking on the door. I also think a year from Now Sanchez could be #1 on this list

By: JJ Docker

JJ Docker — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 17:12:25 +0000

Spot on with almost everything you said. But that’s not the point. The article is well written, considered and passionate – regardless of whether people agree with you or not. Top marks, a compelling read. And it just so happens I agree with you about Aoki, Hansen and Alvarez. Fans can delude themselves, and then talk of a ‘Pride curse’ as some sort of justification for fighters that are well hyped in Japan not doing so well in the UFC. But the bottom line is, I think, and one day hope to see, these fighters exposed if they came over to the UFC. They’re not bad fighters, at all, but certainly not as good as the rankings make them out to be.

By: mmaking

mmaking — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 16:49:20 +0000

MY TOP TEN:

1. PENN
2. FLORIAN
3. SHERK
4. TYSON
5. ALVAREZ
6. HANSEN
7. JZ
8. THOMSON
9. AOKI
10. CLAY

By: JeffR

JeffR — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:11:02 +0000

That list is about as close to correct as I could see it being. 1-3 is perfect, w/the remaining sever being pretty much interchangeable. I don’t get the obsession w/Japanese fighters, or the Japanese MMA scene in general. These guys come over and get spanked by the top UFC competition pretty consistently. I think the pundits writing these lists feel more of an obligation to shed light on the Japanese MMA community and spread the word that there is more than just the UFC, than to coming up w/credible top 10 lists.

By: Pulp

Pulp — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 13:53:49 +0000

I only have one problem with your list at the moment: Diego Sanchez. Simply put, I do not feel he deserves to be number 8 in the top 10 after only one fight. If anything I’d say he’d be 10 simply for the fact that he pushed Joe “Daddy” out entirely. After his fight with Guida he can start moving vertically. Until then I can not concede to him as number 8. Then again, who am I?