Comments on: Combat Sports Insider: Four ways to improve officiating and judging in MMA http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/ Your Destination for Insider MMA News and Opinion Sun, 27 May 2012 01:50:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: edub http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129564 edub Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:28:11 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129564 Damn work network security. Gotta wait til i get home. Thx Metal. Damn work network security. Gotta wait til i get home. Thx Metal.

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]]> By: metalmulisha http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129562 metalmulisha Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:19:52 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129562 <blockquote cite="comment-129558"> <strong><a href="#comment-129558" rel="nofollow">edub</a></strong>: Whos Shamar Bailey Mulisha? </blockquote> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1aIs2w5QXY

edub: Whos Shamar Bailey Mulisha?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1aIs2w5QXY

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]]> By: edub http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129558 edub Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:13:03 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129558 Whos Shamar Bailey Mulisha? Whos Shamar Bailey Mulisha?

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]]> By: metalmulisha http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129557 metalmulisha Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:11:27 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129557 <blockquote cite="comment-129526"> <strong><a href="#comment-129526" rel="nofollow">metalmulisha</a></strong>: Right on about Shamar Bailey. I just wish that Strikeforce would start putting their prelim fights on YouTube like Bellator put fights on there to get some guys a little exposure, because the guy is extremely talented. Which obviously nobody knows because I was home over the weekend and I checked out a lot of different MMA sites I usually never have the time to do and most of the comments I read from the posters on these sites seemed to think that Strikeforce was trying to build up TUF reject Kolosci by scheduling this fight. lol. </blockquote> lol a thumbs down vote for this post. Apparently there's already a Shamar Bailey hater out there.

metalmulisha: Right on about Shamar Bailey. I just wish that Strikeforce would start putting their prelim fights on YouTube like Bellator put fights on there to get some guys a little exposure, because the guy is extremely talented.
Which obviously nobody knows because I was home over the weekend and I checked out a lot of different MMA sites I usually never have the time to do and most of the comments I read from the posters on these sites seemed to think that Strikeforce was trying to build up TUF reject Kolosci by scheduling this fight. lol.

lol a thumbs down vote for this post. Apparently there’s already a Shamar Bailey hater out there.

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]]> By: metalmulisha http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129526 metalmulisha Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:49:16 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129526 Right on about Shamar Bailey. I just wish that Strikeforce would start putting their prelim fights on YouTube like Bellator put fights on there to get some guys a little exposure, because the guy is extremely talented. Which obviously nobody knows because I was home over the weekend and I checked out a lot of different MMA sites I usually never have the time to do and most of the comments I read from the posters on these sites seemed to think that Strikeforce was trying to build up TUF reject Kolosci by scheduling this fight. lol. Right on about Shamar Bailey. I just wish that Strikeforce would start putting their prelim fights on YouTube like Bellator put fights on there to get some guys a little exposure, because the guy is extremely talented.
Which obviously nobody knows because I was home over the weekend and I checked out a lot of different MMA sites I usually never have the time to do and most of the comments I read from the posters on these sites seemed to think that Strikeforce was trying to build up TUF reject Kolosci by scheduling this fight. lol.

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]]> By: chickenheart http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129523 chickenheart Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:34:56 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129523 I am a novice, but a big fan of MMA, I started watching it about 2 years ago. I think I might be able to add something to this discussion simply because I am a novice. I read an article that talked about the judging of the Cerrone/Henderson fight and the article showed me that it made sense that Henderson won, because of the wording of the criteria the judges use to score the fight. However before reading that article, I asked myself were the judges even watching the same fight I did? After thinking about it, I realized that as a novice, I generally thought "if this fight went another 2 rounds, who would probably have won?" and all the times I can think of, the winner of the fight was the person who I would have picked. BUT not in this fight. I cannot see how Henderson could have continued to get hyper extended and choked for another 2 rounds and hope to survive. I watched Cerrone vs Varner and in that one Cerrone got hit so much more, and so much harder, and kept coming, in fact he went faster and harder in the last 3 minutes than the rest of the fight IMHO. I could definately see Cerrone surviving another 2 rounds, no question, because he just didn't look hurt. But Henderson won. I also thought maybe the viewing audience could send in their opinions via the internet on the winner, just to see how close the judging was to popular opinion by the masses including novices like me. One last naive idea: wouldn't it be cool if the judges scored the round after it ended, and their scores were displayed on the TV as captions, and on a teletype machine at ringside so the crowd and even the fighters could see the standings. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how the fighters responded if they knew how the fight was going points-wise before the next round began. Just sharing thoughts on a great sport that I feel sometimes frustrated with. I fear that fighters are eventually going to figure out what judges are looking for and do that, not try to win a fight against an opponent, but try to earn points by doing what they think is worth the most. That is not what the sport is about--my 2 cents. I am a novice, but a big fan of MMA, I started watching it about 2 years ago. I think I might be able to add something to this discussion simply because I am a novice.

I read an article that talked about the judging of the Cerrone/Henderson fight and the article showed me that it made sense that Henderson won, because of the wording of the criteria the judges use to score the fight.

However before reading that article, I asked myself were the judges even watching the same fight I did?

After thinking about it, I realized that as a novice, I generally thought “if this fight went another 2 rounds, who would probably have won?” and all the times I can think of, the winner of the fight was the person who I would have picked. BUT not in this fight. I cannot see how Henderson could have continued to get hyper extended and choked for another 2 rounds and hope to survive. I watched Cerrone vs Varner and in that one Cerrone got hit so much more, and so much harder, and kept coming, in fact he went faster and harder in the last 3 minutes than the rest of the fight IMHO. I could definately see Cerrone surviving another 2 rounds, no question, because he just didn’t look hurt.

But Henderson won.

I also thought maybe the viewing audience could send in their opinions via the internet on the winner, just to see how close the judging was to popular opinion by the masses including novices like me.

One last naive idea: wouldn’t it be cool if the judges scored the round after it ended, and their scores were displayed on the TV as captions, and on a teletype machine at ringside so the crowd and even the fighters could see the standings. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see how the fighters responded if they knew how the fight was going points-wise before the next round began.

Just sharing thoughts on a great sport that I feel sometimes frustrated with. I fear that fighters are eventually going to figure out what judges are looking for and do that, not try to win a fight against an opponent, but try to earn points by doing what they think is worth the most. That is not what the sport is about–my 2 cents.

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]]> By: edub http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129503 edub Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:22:19 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129503 Im gonna be in the minority here but I dont think just because they used to compete that ex fighters would qualify for judging or officiating. Im not saying they would do this neccesarily, but some fighters tend to favor of other fighters that they either have a relationship with or train with. Like Im not sure if Id want say Frank Mir to be judging a fight with Miguel Torres in it. It just seems he would favor the things Torres does more than the person who he is fighting who he is unfamiliar with. However I still think ex fighters should be given the most oppurtunities to get the jobs. I just think they should be put through training and watch a certain # of hours of fight footage before they're "given" the jobs. Im gonna be in the minority here but I dont think just because they used to compete that ex fighters would qualify for judging or officiating. Im not saying they would do this neccesarily, but some fighters tend to favor of other fighters that they either have a relationship with or train with.
Like Im not sure if Id want say Frank Mir to be judging a fight with Miguel Torres in it. It just seems he would favor the things Torres does more than the person who he is fighting who he is unfamiliar with.

However I still think ex fighters should be given the most oppurtunities to get the jobs. I just think they should be put through training and watch a certain # of hours of fight footage before they’re “given” the jobs.

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]]> By: Sergio Hernandez http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129495 Sergio Hernandez Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:48:29 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129495 Saying the decision is a "miscarriage of justice" is insulting to Henderson and Cerrone, for that matter. With a fight this close, where solid arguments could be made for each fighter, the result just can't be ridiculous seeing as how it could have gone either way. Saying the decision is a “miscarriage of justice” is insulting to Henderson and Cerrone, for that matter.

With a fight this close, where solid arguments could be made for each fighter, the result just can’t be ridiculous seeing as how it could have gone either way.

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]]> By: TerribleT http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129494 TerribleT Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:44:51 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129494 I know Cerrone says he lost but he doesn't want to sound like a whiner because he knows deep down that he won and that the majority of all who watched agree he won anyway.If somebody agrees that Henderson won then they would have to have given him round 5 which would be absolutely ridiculous! I know Cerrone says he lost but he doesn’t want to sound like a whiner because he knows deep down that he won and that the majority of all who watched agree he won anyway.If somebody agrees that Henderson won then they would have to have given him round 5 which would be absolutely ridiculous!

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]]> By: jj http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129487 jj Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:59:10 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129487 The 10 point must system in fundamentally flawed. Firstly there should be tie rounds allowed because just about every event the commentators talk about how even a round was and how it could go to either person. Also, If you have 2 stagnate rounds that a fighter wins by not doing a whole lot and then have a totally insane 3rd round with a bajillion damage points scored by the other fighter, why should the fighter who barely eked out the first 2 rounds win the fight regardless of all the damage being done in the later round. I like the Japanese scoring system that scores a fight across the whole bout. I think it's a good idea that fighters are awarded points for how strongly they finish. Also I think we need to get rid of this stupid wrestling take down point fetish. If you take someone down and use it to only stagnate the fight then the take down should could against you. If you take someone down and do some serious damage, _then_ you should get the damage points. There are so many boring wrestlers in MMA that win fights by taking people down and smothering them for 15 minutes ala Clay Guida. Clay is talented but he needs to do more to earn his victories than merely put people on their back and stick his dirty mop in their face. This is a FIGHT not a wrestling match and it should be scored as such. In Saturdays main event Ben was getting real sloppy at the end and Cerrone was finding his rhythm and starting to dominate. I don't think there's any question who finished the fight stronger, and in reality you shouldn't be winning fights because of what you did in the first opening minutes, but rather what you achieved in the last few minutes and this fight was a great example of that. The 10 point must system in fundamentally flawed. Firstly there should be tie rounds allowed because just about every event the commentators talk about how even a round was and how it could go to either person. Also, If you have 2 stagnate rounds that a fighter wins by not doing a whole lot and then have a totally insane 3rd round with a bajillion damage points scored by the other fighter, why should the fighter who barely eked out the first 2 rounds win the fight regardless of all the damage being done in the later round.

I like the Japanese scoring system that scores a fight across the whole bout. I think it’s a good idea that fighters are awarded points for how strongly they finish. Also I think we need to get rid of this stupid wrestling take down point fetish. If you take someone down and use it to only stagnate the fight then the take down should could against you. If you take someone down and do some serious damage, _then_ you should get the damage points. There are so many boring wrestlers in MMA that win fights by taking people down and smothering them for 15 minutes ala Clay Guida. Clay is talented but he needs to do more to earn his victories than merely put people on their back and stick his dirty mop in their face. This is a FIGHT not a wrestling match and it should be scored as such.

In Saturdays main event Ben was getting real sloppy at the end and Cerrone was finding his rhythm and starting to dominate. I don’t think there’s any question who finished the fight stronger, and in reality you shouldn’t be winning fights because of what you did in the first opening minutes, but rather what you achieved in the last few minutes and this fight was a great example of that.

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]]> By: fraz http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129478 fraz Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:43:24 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129478 When Cerrone himself says that he lost , it can harldly be considered one of the "biggest" miscarrages of justice. There are plenty of examples where somebody decisively lost and yet was awarded a win by inept judges. This isn't one of those cases. Enjoyed the article though. It is about time for the system to be revamped and these are some pro-active ways to get the ball rolling. When Cerrone himself says that he lost , it can harldly be considered one of the “biggest” miscarrages of justice.
There are plenty of examples where somebody decisively lost and yet was awarded a win by inept judges. This isn’t one of those cases.

Enjoyed the article though. It is about time for the system to be revamped and these are some pro-active ways to get the ball rolling.

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]]> By: hindsightufuk http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129459 hindsightufuk Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:08:32 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129459 <blockquote cite="comment-129446"> <strong><a href="#comment-129446" rel="nofollow">Rich S.</a></strong>: By the way, what was up with the ref in the Crunkilton/Jansen fight? Some of those stand-ups were in the middle of punches, and some were just after like 5-10 seconds.. We want action, sure, but that was ludicrous.. Especially, seeing as how Crunkilton seemed to have the huge advantage on the feet.. </blockquote> yep, same as with one of the other fights, I think it was Page/Campuzano, Page got Wills back and the ref is saying improve your position. to what? other than mount or standing over your unconcious opponent, there is no equal. bollocks

Rich S.:
By the way, what was up with the ref in the Crunkilton/Jansen fight? Some of those stand-ups were in the middle of punches, and some were just after like 5-10 seconds..
We want action, sure, but that was ludicrous.. Especially, seeing as how Crunkilton seemed to have the huge advantage on the feet..

yep, same as with one of the other fights, I think it was Page/Campuzano, Page got Wills back and the ref is saying improve your position. to what? other than mount or standing over your unconcious opponent, there is no equal. bollocks

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]]> By: neijia http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129455 neijia Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:35:26 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129455 I'd like to see some combination of IKF San Shou rules and ADCC rules. What to do about strikes on the ground, though... I’d like to see some combination of IKF San Shou rules and ADCC rules. What to do about strikes on the ground, though…

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]]> By: Ronin http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129450 Ronin Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:42:48 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129450 BTW Olympic Boxing is the worst judging on the planet!!, have you even watch Olympic Boxing? Says it was posted by Sam Caplan but he said he has separated himself from the website due his involvement with a new mma promotion. This must be Brady writing this. BTW Olympic Boxing is the worst judging on the planet!!, have you even watch Olympic Boxing?
Says it was posted by Sam Caplan but he said he has separated himself from the website due his involvement with a new mma promotion. This must be Brady writing this.

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]]> By: Ronin http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129449 Ronin Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:32:56 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129449 I had Henderson winning, this was not a miscarriage of justice. I had Henderson winning, this was not a miscarriage of justice.

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]]> By: Rich S. http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129446 Rich S. Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:02:38 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129446 The biggest problem for me is their grasp on CONTROL. Take round 2 of last night's main event.. That's control. Although Don was throwing up subs, Ben was able to avoid them rather easily, maintain his position, and actually inflict damage.. Now, look at Curran/Mizugaki.. I don't quite remember if it was round 2 or 3.. Either way, Mizugaki was on top.. On top doesn't always mean in control.. That just means you're on top.. Not only was he not able to do damage, but it actually got to the point to where he COULDN'T punch because he was having to dodge Curran's punches, FROM THE BOTTOM! That's control.. I don't care how many takedowns you get, if you are getting punched more than you are punching, and if you are in constant danger of submission or sweeps, you are not in control, and there for should lose that round.. It's really a shame today's judges have this problem.. Because it kind of nullifies the purpose of Jiu Jitsu.. I mean, I know it's the fighters responsibility to not get taken down, and to not let the fight go to the judges.. But, quite frankly, some guys are at an advantageous position while on their backs.. And I'd say not being able to finish somebody with a sub from bottom is the same as a wrestler not being able to finish someone while on top.. They would still take the decision.. What's worse is, I don't see this changing anytime soon.. By the way, what was up with the ref in the Crunkilton/Jansen fight? Some of those stand-ups were in the middle of punches, and some were just after like 5-10 seconds.. We want action, sure, but that was ludicrous.. Especially, seeing as how Crunkilton seemed to have the huge advantage on the feet.. The biggest problem for me is their grasp on CONTROL. Take round 2 of last night’s main event.. That’s control. Although Don was throwing up subs, Ben was able to avoid them rather easily, maintain his position, and actually inflict damage..

Now, look at Curran/Mizugaki.. I don’t quite remember if it was round 2 or 3.. Either way, Mizugaki was on top.. On top doesn’t always mean in control.. That just means you’re on top.. Not only was he not able to do damage, but it actually got to the point to where he COULDN’T punch because he was having to dodge Curran’s punches, FROM THE BOTTOM! That’s control..

I don’t care how many takedowns you get, if you are getting punched more than you are punching, and if you are in constant danger of submission or sweeps, you are not in control, and there for should lose that round..

It’s really a shame today’s judges have this problem.. Because it kind of nullifies the purpose of Jiu Jitsu.. I mean, I know it’s the fighters responsibility to not get taken down, and to not let the fight go to the judges.. But, quite frankly, some guys are at an advantageous position while on their backs.. And I’d say not being able to finish somebody with a sub from bottom is the same as a wrestler not being able to finish someone while on top.. They would still take the decision..

What’s worse is, I don’t see this changing anytime soon..

By the way, what was up with the ref in the Crunkilton/Jansen fight? Some of those stand-ups were in the middle of punches, and some were just after like 5-10 seconds..
We want action, sure, but that was ludicrous.. Especially, seeing as how Crunkilton seemed to have the huge advantage on the feet..

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]]> By: moosebaby02 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129440 moosebaby02 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:32:19 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129440 great read and something that really does need to be addressed great read and something that really does need to be addressed

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]]> By: metalmulisha http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129432 metalmulisha Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:25:27 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129432 <blockquote cite="comment-129428"> <strong><a href="#comment-129428" rel="nofollow">BigDave</a></strong>: First off the judges got it right benson won that fight no question. </blockquote> LOL.

BigDave: First off the judges got it right benson won that fight no question.

LOL.

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]]> By: BigDave http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129428 BigDave Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:55:56 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129428 First off the judges got it right benson won that fight no question. I agree with your article other then that though.let guys that have actually competed in mma judge and ref the sport. Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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]]> By: Vogairian http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/11/combat-sports-insider-four-ways-to-improve-officiating-and-judging-in-mma/comment-page-1/#comment-129419 Vogairian Sun, 11 Oct 2009 11:25:48 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=17914#comment-129419 I agree that something needs to be done with the refs. I'd say the biggest problem isn't the 10 point must, it's the fact that we have judges judging things differently. Some judges see a takedown followed by little else and mentally give a point, some judges see that same takedown and do to the lack of action dismiss it. Honestly the best thing they can do is try to get a clearer idea of what winning the fight is and I'd say the best way to do it is the way you suggested, with a governing body of some sort over seeing the judges and refs. I agree that something needs to be done with the refs. I’d say the biggest problem isn’t the 10 point must, it’s the fact that we have judges judging things differently. Some judges see a takedown followed by little else and mentally give a point, some judges see that same takedown and do to the lack of action dismiss it. Honestly the best thing they can do is try to get a clearer idea of what winning the fight is and I’d say the best way to do it is the way you suggested, with a governing body of some sort over seeing the judges and refs.

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