Comments on: Combat Sports Insider: Solving extreme weight cutting is easier said than done http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/ Your Destination for Insider MMA News and Opinion Sat, 26 May 2012 23:36:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: Madmax http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131555 Madmax Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:10:07 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131555 BIG BAD BULL####, where are you, we need you to enlighten these guys about 6 lbs not being an unfair advantage, from a FIGHTERS perspective BIG BAD BULL####, where are you, we need you to enlighten these guys about 6 lbs not being an unfair advantage, from a FIGHTERS perspective

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]]> By: Madmax http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131554 Madmax Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:06:59 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131554 To Angry Mike: Watch what you say bout johnson and fighters who dont make weight not being allowed to fight. I said the same thing in another thread, and got worn out by Big Bad Bull. He's a fighter, dontcha know, and is an authority on these matters. So, be careful, or I'm sure the Big Bull( and others) will be flaming you too. To Angry Mike:

Watch what you say bout johnson and fighters who dont make weight not being allowed to fight. I said the same thing in another thread, and got worn out by Big Bad Bull. He’s a fighter, dontcha know, and is an authority on these matters. So, be careful, or I’m sure the Big Bull( and others) will be flaming you too.

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]]> By: Scott H. http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131515 Scott H. Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:19:34 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131515 Great Article Sam! I think it's interesting to reduce some of the Gap's in weight, and higlighted some specific way's to do so. With respect to the standard 15 lbs. between weight classes, would you be in favour of lowering it (say to 10 lbs.). While I don't think anyone want's to create a boxing type scenario of weight classes, and champions you can't keep track of, is there a better way to do things? My quick thought, 2 new classes, narrowing all gaps between the weight classes 265 Super HW 225 HW 205 LHW 190 Cruiser Weight 180 MW 170 WW 160LW If you wanted, this could also extend to the lighter weights, sya 150, 142.5, and 135. Would 7 UFC classes, and three lighter weight classes be to much to follow? Are there engough good fighters to fill these's classes? I think could be done. Great Article Sam!

I think it’s interesting to reduce some of the Gap’s in weight, and higlighted some specific way’s to do so. With respect to the standard 15 lbs. between weight classes, would you be in favour of lowering it (say to 10 lbs.). While I don’t think anyone want’s to create a boxing type scenario of weight classes, and champions you can’t keep track of, is there a better way to do things?

My quick thought, 2 new classes, narrowing all gaps between the weight classes
265 Super HW
225 HW
205 LHW
190 Cruiser Weight
180 MW
170 WW
160LW

If you wanted, this could also extend to the lighter weights, sya 150, 142.5, and 135. Would 7 UFC classes, and three lighter weight classes be to much to follow? Are there engough good fighters to fill these’s classes? I think could be done.

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]]> By: Angry Mike http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131472 Angry Mike Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:46:58 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131472 edub: I don't know about that. Neer has substantially less muscle mass than Tibau, so I'm not sure that Tibau could've cut easier. It's beside the point for me, anyway. I haven't made a scientific study of it, but it seems to me that ATT fighters have more problems making weight than any other gym. Huge cuts to fight at lower weights are a big part of their game plans, and if they don't make weight it's an unfair advantage, especially after re-hydrating with iv's and pedialite. So far they haven't really paid a price for missing weight, so they don't have a big downside for coming in heavy. And it puts the other guy in a bad spot, which is punishing the victim. At the risk of sounding like a six year old, it's not fair. edub:

I don’t know about that. Neer has substantially less muscle mass than Tibau, so I’m not sure that Tibau could’ve cut easier. It’s beside the point for me, anyway. I haven’t made a scientific study of it, but it seems to me that ATT fighters have more problems making weight than any other gym. Huge cuts to fight at lower weights are a big part of their game plans, and if they don’t make weight it’s an unfair advantage, especially after re-hydrating with iv’s and pedialite. So far they haven’t really paid a price for missing weight, so they don’t have a big downside for coming in heavy. And it puts the other guy in a bad spot, which is punishing the victim. At the risk of sounding like a six year old, it’s not fair.

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]]> By: HonorableAggression http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131458 HonorableAggression Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:34:21 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131458 Personally, I think the issue is mostly about fighters making incredible and dangerous cuts to be a giant at the lowest possible weight class (aka Anthony Johnson and his 215 lb. self), and not facing stiff enough penalties. Six pounds overweight 24 hours before the fight is *insane*, no matter what the reasoning. I do think taking away the ability for the fighters who don't make weight to earn "of the night" bonuses is a step in the right direction. I also like the sliding scale idea, as someone else already mentioned, that the percentage over you are is directly related to the percentage of your salary you give to the other fighter. Same day weigh-ins are interesting I'll admit but I think that's a rocky road. I tend to disagree with adding a weight class, but I will admit, Brock and company are making a strong case for it! Personally, I think the issue is mostly about fighters making incredible and dangerous cuts to be a giant at the lowest possible weight class (aka Anthony Johnson and his 215 lb. self), and not facing stiff enough penalties. Six pounds overweight 24 hours before the fight is *insane*, no matter what the reasoning. I do think taking away the ability for the fighters who don’t make weight to earn “of the night” bonuses is a step in the right direction. I also like the sliding scale idea, as someone else already mentioned, that the percentage over you are is directly related to the percentage of your salary you give to the other fighter. Same day weigh-ins are interesting I’ll admit but I think that’s a rocky road.
I tend to disagree with adding a weight class, but I will admit, Brock and company are making a strong case for it!

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]]> By: Screenplaya http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131455 Screenplaya Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:15:00 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131455 Two changes are in order: Day of fight weigh-ins, and changing the weight classes. 1) If fighters have to make weight as they enter the cage, they will not be cutting. No one will want to fight while severely dehyrdrated. Or they will cut, and enough big but exhausted and dehydrated fighters will lose, that they will learn that cutting doesnt work anymore. Make fighters not want to cut. That is surely the most effective means of stopping cutting. 2) I definitely do not want the see MMA follow the boxing plan of adding a zillion weight classes, but I am in favor of adding a pair of them. Welter - 155 Light - 170 Middle - 185 Light Heavy - 200 Heavy - 225 Super Heavy - 250 Over - 280 (I love the idea of having an "Over Weight" world champion. ;-) 'Playa Two changes are in order: Day of fight weigh-ins, and changing the weight classes.

1) If fighters have to make weight as they enter the cage, they will not be cutting. No one will want to fight while severely dehyrdrated. Or they will cut, and enough big but exhausted and dehydrated fighters will lose, that they will learn that cutting doesnt work anymore. Make fighters not want to cut. That is surely the most effective means of stopping cutting.

2) I definitely do not want the see MMA follow the boxing plan of adding a zillion weight classes, but I am in favor of adding a pair of them.
Welter – 155
Light – 170
Middle – 185
Light Heavy – 200
Heavy – 225
Super Heavy – 250
Over – 280 (I love the idea of having an “Over Weight” world champion. ;-)

‘Playa

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]]> By: edub http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131449 edub Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:49:29 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131449 <blockquote cite="comment-131447"> <strong><a href="#comment-131447" rel="nofollow">Angry Mike</a></strong>: it also happened to Neer when he fought Tibau last weekend </blockquote> Neer was overweight too Mike. Thats why he wasn't asked to cut that extra pound. I actually think Tibau wouldve been able to cut that last pound easier than Neer that extra half pound. Neer looked near death at the weight in.

Angry Mike: it also happened to Neer when he fought Tibau last weekend

Neer was overweight too Mike. Thats why he wasn’t asked to cut that extra pound. I actually think Tibau wouldve been able to cut that last pound easier than Neer that extra half pound. Neer looked near death at the weight in.

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]]> By: Angry Mike http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131447 Angry Mike Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:32:32 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131447 Imo, a fighter's failure to make weight is as bad as using perfomance enhancing substances, especially if the fighter makes huge cuts to fight in a lighter weight class. It puts the opponent in a no-win situation because he either has to back out of the fight and anger the fans and the org. or fight against an over-size opponent. That happened to Hughes when he fought Alves, and it also happened to Neer when he fought Tibau last weekend. The size of Tibau and Alves was a major advantage in their fights, and definitely affected the outcomes. I understand the advantage of cutting down to fight smaller opponents, but if you don't pull it off--and ATT fighters fail to make weight on a consistent basis--it's cheating. Either the org. or the sanctioning body should take the pressure off the fighters. If a fighter doesn't make weight, he either doesn't fight or pays a substantial penalty to his opponent. And a loss to an overweight opponent shouldn't affect a fighter's record or standing. Imo, a fighter’s failure to make weight is as bad as using perfomance enhancing substances, especially if the fighter makes huge cuts to fight in a lighter weight class. It puts the opponent in a no-win situation because he either has to back out of the fight and anger the fans and the org. or fight against an over-size opponent. That happened to Hughes when he fought Alves, and it also happened to Neer when he fought Tibau last weekend. The size of Tibau and Alves was a major advantage in their fights, and definitely affected the outcomes. I understand the advantage of cutting down to fight smaller opponents, but if you don’t pull it off–and ATT fighters fail to make weight on a consistent basis–it’s cheating. Either the org. or the sanctioning body should take the pressure off the fighters. If a fighter doesn’t make weight, he either doesn’t fight or pays a substantial penalty to his opponent. And a loss to an overweight opponent shouldn’t affect a fighter’s record or standing.

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]]> By: kenonbass http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131442 kenonbass Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:15:20 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131442 We don't need more weight classes. Look what happened to boxing. The current way they do it, although it doesn't seem like it, is for the fighters safety. That's why we don't see same day weigh ins. This way a fighter can rehydrate before a fight. If they go into a grueling fight w/out being rehydrated it poses the highest risk for serious injury. We don’t need more weight classes. Look what happened to boxing.

The current way they do it, although it doesn’t seem like it, is for the fighters safety. That’s why we don’t see same day weigh ins. This way a fighter can rehydrate before a fight. If they go into a grueling fight w/out being rehydrated it poses the highest risk for serious injury.

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]]> By: beef http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131410 beef Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:57:58 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131410 “On the official day of weigh-in, if a fighter is less than 1 percent overweight, he or she can be given additional time to make weight. If on the second weigh-in, the fighter remains overweight, a financial penalty can be levied and paid to the on-weight fighter, at his or her discretion.” "...loophole.... psychological warfare..." I don't exactly see where you see these things coming into play. The way I read this recommendation, things would essentially be the same as they currently are when a fighter is over the weight limit: They are given extra time (a couple of hours) to cut and try again. Are there currently instances where they are given overnight to do so? Can they currently play psych games or work a loophole? Your other points are valid as far as the potentially prohibitive difficulty and cost associated with increasing the number of weigh-ins. What I don't understand is why the organizations simply don't have a calibrated scale outside of the ring and have the fighters weigh in just before they enter the ring/cage (as a part of the usual pre-fight check). If they are above 10% (for instance) of the the contracted weight then they are fined and/or they surrender a _significant_ portion of their purse. I can't offer up an exact number but the current 20% standard doesn't seem prohibitive enough. It could even be made into a sliding scale (for instance, 30-100% financial penalty depending on how much overweight) Yes, fighters may still try to cut weight and maybe try to fight in inappropriate weight classes but they would surrender to pretty serious disadvantages to do so. I feel that these disadvantages and the increased likelihood of losing would be very strong deterrents to attempting to cut too much weight. “On the official day of weigh-in, if a fighter is less than 1 percent overweight, he or she can be given additional time to make weight. If on the second weigh-in, the fighter remains overweight, a financial penalty can be levied and paid to the on-weight fighter, at his or her discretion.”

“…loophole…. psychological warfare…”

I don’t exactly see where you see these things coming into play. The way I read this recommendation, things would essentially be the same as they currently are when a fighter is over the weight limit: They are given extra time (a couple of hours) to cut and try again. Are there currently instances where they are given overnight to do so? Can they currently play psych games or work a loophole?

Your other points are valid as far as the potentially prohibitive difficulty and cost associated with increasing the number of weigh-ins.

What I don’t understand is why the organizations simply don’t have a calibrated scale outside of the ring and have the fighters weigh in just before they enter the ring/cage (as a part of the usual pre-fight check). If they are above 10% (for instance) of the the contracted weight then they are fined and/or they surrender a _significant_ portion of their purse. I can’t offer up an exact number but the current 20% standard doesn’t seem prohibitive enough. It could even be made into a sliding scale (for instance, 30-100% financial penalty depending on how much overweight)

Yes, fighters may still try to cut weight and maybe try to fight in inappropriate weight classes but they would surrender to pretty serious disadvantages to do so. I feel that these disadvantages and the increased likelihood of losing would be very strong deterrents to attempting to cut too much weight.

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]]> By: Vogairian http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131403 Vogairian Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:10:58 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131403 I still think the best way to stop extreme cutting is to have same day weigh-ins and if a fighter comes in over you cut 75% of his overall purse. I still think the best way to stop extreme cutting is to have same day weigh-ins and if a fighter comes in over you cut 75% of his overall purse.

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]]> By: Pajamashark http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131402 Pajamashark Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:56:02 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131402 I totally agree with fighter suspensions for not making weight. It's part of their job, and figuring out ways to cheat the system should not be rewarded. Inserting cruiserweight class is a great idea and should be done immediately. There is NO reason that one weight class like the heavy weight devision, should span almost 60lbs. I totally agree with fighter suspensions for not making weight. It’s part of their job, and figuring out ways to cheat the system should not be rewarded.

Inserting cruiserweight class is a great idea and should be done immediately. There is NO reason that one weight class like the heavy weight devision, should span almost 60lbs.

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]]> By: moosebaby02 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131397 moosebaby02 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:41:10 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131397 "The 20 lbs. gap between middleweight and light heavyweight is huge. I am not so sure the notion of adding a cruiserweight class with a minimum weight of 186 lbs. and 200 lbs. while making a new light heavyweight class between 201 lbs. and 220 lbs. is a bad one. By adding a cruiserweight division, you not only eliminate the 20 lbs. gap between middleweight and light heavyweight, but the 65 lbs. gap between light heavyweight and heavyweight." I love this idea Sam. I can see it now a year long elimanation tourney to see will be crowned the next Cruiserweight Champ. Plus it gives more room for the middle weight HW to fight for something other that getting pounded by guys like Brock, Carwin like monsters “The 20 lbs. gap between middleweight and light heavyweight is huge. I am not so sure the notion of adding a cruiserweight class with a minimum weight of 186 lbs. and 200 lbs. while making a new light heavyweight class between 201 lbs. and 220 lbs. is a bad one. By adding a cruiserweight division, you not only eliminate the 20 lbs. gap between middleweight and light heavyweight, but the 65 lbs. gap between light heavyweight and heavyweight.”

I love this idea Sam. I can see it now a year long elimanation tourney to see will be crowned the next Cruiserweight Champ. Plus it gives more room for the middle weight HW to fight for something other that getting pounded by guys like Brock, Carwin like monsters

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]]> By: fanoftna33 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/10/29/combat-sports-insider-solving-extreme-weight-cutting-in-mma-is-easier-said-than-done/comment-page-1/#comment-131394 fanoftna33 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:16:18 +0000 http://fiveouncesofpain.com/?p=18331#comment-131394 This is a great look at Dr Bens story from practicle side of things. Although the Drs. changes look good on paper they will never be implimented in MMA. This is a great look at Dr Bens story from practicle side of things. Although the Drs. changes look good on paper they will never be implimented in MMA.

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