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Grappling with Issues – 11/17/11

Is Cain Velasquez destined for a title-shot in 2012? Should the winner of this weekend’s main event between Dan Henderson and Mauricio Rua jump Rashad Evans as #1 contender? Will Fedor Emelianenko‘s fight flop on PPV? Could UFC 139 mark the final time Wanderlei Silva steps into the ring?

Keyboard warrrrriors….come out to plaaaay-yay!

Welcome to Grappling with Issues, our site’s regular weekly feature highlighting insight and opinion from myself and resident workhorse Jeremy Lambert whose general contributions and “Scorecard” event-breakdowns can be regularly found on Five Ounces. As always, just because we staffers get the fancy set-up, please don’t hesitate to offer your own take on the topics in the “Comments” section below.

Will Cain Velasquez earn his second shot at the title in 2012?

Lambert: This is tough because you never know how things will play out with injuries, but I’m going to say that Cain might earn another title shot in 2012 though might not fight for the title until 2013. The way I see it, he’s going to need at least two wins before he gets another title shot, get through those fights healthy, and hope the champion is also healthy during that stretch as well. I’m just not convinced that will happen, especially given how the bug has gone around the UFC this past year.

Conlan: Yes. If recent history has shown us anything it’s that a guy like Velasquez, who has been hyped to death as an uber-talented fan-favorite, only needs to win a single time before receiving another crack at the championship. Brock Lesnar got fast-tracked to one, as will Chael Sonnen apparently, so why wouldn’t Velasquez too as long as he picks up a win over a reputable contender like Cheick Kongo, the winner of Frank Mir vs. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, or even the loser of Lesnar vs. Alistair Overeem (all of whom I could see him beating)?

True or False – You knew there was a Strikeforce Challengers event Friday night before reading this line.

Lambert: True, but only because I put the MMA on TV schedule together every Sunday, which allows me to know every MMA event, no matter how small, that ends up on television. That said, I can’t tell you who is fighting other than Antwain Britt, Ronda Rousey, and Derek Brunson, and I know that none of them are fighting each other. Of course I’ll watch it, but it’s pretty clear that Strikeforce is dead in the water and the Challengers series has been dead for awhile now.

Conlan: Also true, though with an added caveat in line with Lambert’s in that I wrote something earlier this week blasting Strikeforce for the lack of promotion where Challengers events are concerned. For whatever reasons, the company has ignored basic, simple marketing strategies like sending out press releases or holding conference calls. Last week there was a single original article on the Strikeforce website selling the event and literally 3/50+ Tweets mentioned the actual event. The Strikeforce Challengers Series could be used as an excellent tool to introduce up-and-coming fighters, much like WEC was, yet for whatever reason Zuffa chooses to bury it through their relative indifference. It’s truly no wonder the shows have been tanking as of late.

Do you expect Wanderlei Silva to retire if he loses to Cung Le at UFC 139?

Lambert: Should he? Yes. Do I expect him to? No. This is an extremely winnable fight for Silva because, lets face it, Le isn’t all that great of a fighter. He’s very flashy and has entertaining fights but he hasn’t fought good competition and he’s almost exclusively a kicker. If Silva loses, and even worse gets knocked out, it’ll pretty much signal the end for him as a competitive fighter. That doesn’t mean he’ll retire though. Given Silva’s mentality, he’ll want to keep fighting until he can’t walk and if UFC wants nothing more to do with him after Saturday, he can always head back to Japan.

Conlan: No, not in the least bit. Silva himself has said he feels healthy and wants to keep fighting, explaining in a conference call this week that every fighter gets caught, citing Velasquez’s loss to Junior dos Santos, but that it doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the road for that particular athlete. Like Lambert, I can absolutely see Silva wowing the fans in Japan putting dents in a few tomato cans even if the UFC refuses to let him grace the Octagon ever again.

Should the winner of “Shogun” Rua vs. Dan Henderson jump Rashad Evans for a title-shot?

Conlan: Should – no. Will – yes. Since “Sugar” ‘Shad hasn’t been booked for a bout yet he’ll essentially be in the same position as Rua/Henderson as far as being ready for Jon Jones/Lyoto Machida in the first quarter of 2012 and he’s been in line for another crack at a championship since last year. The primary difference will relate to activity since Rua/Henderson have fought more frequently in 2011, in part due to Evans’ decision to wait for an injured “Shogun” to recover only to ultimately get hurt himself. The notion Evans fought in August after fifteen months off and would be sidelined for another 4-6 months while waiting for his crack at the belt probably won’t sit well with Zuffa brass, hence the reason the winner of this weekend’s main event will draw a title-shot next rather than Rashad.

Lambert: I have to agree with Bren. The winner of Rua and Henderson shouldn’t jump Rashad, but they most likely will. We know Dana is great at holding grudges and I think he holds a huge grudge against Evans for waiting for his title shot. Why else would he have Rashad fight in August when Jones was ready to fight in September or why else would he have Jones fight at UFC 140 when Rashad was ready to fight at UFC 141? It’s not like the winner of Shogun vs. Hendo wouldn’t be deserving, although if Shogun wins I’m not sure how many fans will be clamoring for a third bout against Machida or a second bout with Jones given how their previous fights went.

Over/Under – 25,000 buys for M-1: Fedor vs. Monson…

Conlan: I don’t know a ton about buyrates but I’ll say “under” because, as I recall, Affliction was happy to draw 100,000 and they had the added benefit of MMA’s popularity skyrocketing, the hype of their brand, a much better card, and a start-time more conducive to watching MMA than watching the sun rise. There is nothing appealing about M-1’s offering, even in the context of Emelianenko having lost his last three fights and taking on a solid but not necessarily “sexy” opponent, so I have a hard time believing more than a few thousand people will bite the bullet to watch things live on PPV at the crack of dawn rather than wake up at a normal time and rely on the internet for results/video. Of course, I know my counterpart in this argument will be one of them…

Lambert: Amazingly, I won’t be purchasing this PPV, because according to my cable provider, this PPV isn’t even available for me to purchase. I strongly believe that this event will be lucky to do 100 buys. Not only does it not appear to be available to all cable subscribers, but, as Bren mentioned, the time slot (7AM EST on a Sunday) is an absolutely terrible time slot given that people like to sleep in on Sunday or, if they do get up early, it’s probably because they’re heading to church. Furthermore, it’s coming on the same weekend as UFC 139 and WWE Survivor Series, so if you’re a person that can only afford one PPV a month, you’re definitely choosing one of those two over M-1. And normally a WWE PPV wouldn’t take away from a MMA PPV, but because Survivor Series marks the wrestling return of “The Rock”, that’s one PPV that could take away buys from not only M-1, but UFC as well.

Will Eddie Alvarez retain his Bellator lightweight title this weekend against Mike Chandler?

Conlan: Yes, though I can see Chandler going five rounds against him based on mental toughness and a wrestling base opening up the possibility of stalling on the ground to recover if needed. In my eyes Alvarez is easily a “Top 5” lightweight, while Chandler may be there one day but is still polishing his game rather than entering his prime. Alvarez has handled grapplers before and his boxing is some of the best in the sport. It should be a great fight for sure but one with Alvarez ultimately exiting the ring as champion.

Lambert: I’m giving Chandler a better chance than most because I think Alvarez is a flawed fighter, especially on his feet where everyone praises him, but at the end of the day, Alvarez is the better fighter. He’s well rounded and should be able to stuff the takedowns of Chandler. He’s actually vulnerable on the feet because he’s not a good defensive striker, gets hit a lot, and his chin is a bit questionable, although he does recover well. If Chandler can mix things up, score some takedowns, and keep Alvarez off balance on the feet then I like his chances but I think Alvarez’ experience will pay off and he’ll take a highly competitive decision.

PHOTO CREDIT – UFC

30 COMMENTS
  • edub says:

    -Yes. He’ll get a win over an also ran (Roy, Stefan, Cheick, Travis B.), and then he’ll beat a contender in (Reem, JDS, Brock, Shane, or Frank).

    -Yes. Only because I’m facebook friends with Rousey though. Soooo hot.

    -No. Plain and simple.

    -No. But if dan Henderson wins he just might. However, if Rua wins there’s not enough hype for a rematch with Bones considering the way the first match went down.

    -Under. Too early and it’s coming off of a UFC event the night before. That’s not even taking into account the fact that most will probably be streaming it.

    -Eddie Alvarez is a top 5 LHW. Along with Gray, Frankie, and Gil (Aoki too). He will keep Chandler at bay all fight and showcase his boxing skills that are right near the top of the LW division.

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  • edub says:

    Add on: Eddie really needs to move to the UFC.

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  • MCM says:

    Yes- The HW division is thin and they’re aren’t many draws like Cain in it.

    True- I actually read Brendhans article. But I don’t care.

    Yes- Losing to Le won’t be an “anyone can get caught moment” It will be his 6th loss in his past 8 fights. Just like Cro Cop he should recognize that he’s done in the sport.

    If Shogun wins, Hell no. If Dan wins, maybe. But Rashad is still the only person capable of taking the belt away from Jones.

    Lambert thinks they’ll be lucky to do 100 buys. I think Lambert is an optimist.

    Yes, Eddie will win and edub is right, he does belong in the UFC. Where he’ll loose to most of the top 10. ;)

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  • edub says:

    Eddie beats everybody in the UFC not named Gray Maynard or Frankie Edgar. I would love him to fight Hendo because I guarantee the odds would be close enough to put down a boat load of money on him.

    Guillard-Alvarez would be nassssty.

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  • MCM says:

    I think he’d loose to Frankie, Gray, Bendo, Guida, Penn, Guillard, Gilbert, Miller and Cerrone. That still keeps him in the top 10 though. And I’d give him even odds against Wiman and Diaz. Either way, he’s wasting his best yeas in Bellator and really does belong in the mix with the top UFC guys.

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  • Rece Rock says:

    “Guillard-Alvarez would be nassssty.”

    I think a focused Melvin Guillard would have eddie’s #.

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  • edub says:

    He crushes Cerrone, Guida, Wiman and Miller. He would have most advantages against Ben, Diaz, and Gray (I’d still have him losing to Gray). I don’t count Melendez as a UFC lw yet, and Penn is barely an active fighter.

    Either way we agree that he definitely belongs in the UFC.

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  • edub says:

    “I think a focused Melvin Guillard would have eddie’s #.”

    IMO a focused Guillard can beat anybody in the world. The problem is (and has always been throughout his entire career) is Melvin has mental lapses. The fight would be a great style match up taking Melvin’s explosiveness and putting it against Eddie’s technical brilliance.

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  • Yes-If Cain wins one moe bout in stellar fashion he’ll get his title shot right after the winner of Overeem and Brock. He’s too marketable and even with HW filling out alot its still a relatively thin division.

    sure didnt.

    I expect Wanderlei to die in the ring in about 50 years after he’s compiled a record of 1,000-225-7. Wandy wont retire, ever. And after watching the Dan Severn’s, Jeremy Horns and Ken Shamrocks….why should he?

    If its Shogun no, if its Hendo yes. Rashad hasnt beaten anyone worth mentioning since Rampage almost two years ago. Sorry but hanging out and beating Tito after two years off isnt worthy of a title shot in my opinion.

    Yep and then Eddie will be in the UFC where he will be competitive with everyone but I cant call who he’ll beat but he’ll do well.
    and on the subject of Melvin Guillard I doubt it. Considering Melvin hasnt ever beat anyone worth the hype surrounding him in the octagon. Dude’s a mid tier or can crusher and the moment he fights a decent fighter like Diaz or Lauzon he gets beat. Alvarez would have his way with him.

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  • Oh and Cerrone and him would be a war…..Cerrone is gonna shock alot of people and fight for gold in 2012….if he gets by Nate.

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  • Niv says:

    Velasquez may get another shot next year, I bet he’ll face Brock Lesnar in a rematch after Overeem puts Lesnar away next month.

    SF challengers series is done, the UFC will just bury it over time just as they will bury SF.

    Wandy should’ve retired years ago when he got ko’d back to back by Cro Cop and Hendo in Pride, who would have known after being ko’d by legends he’d now be fodder for the likes of Leben. It’s sad but Wandy won’t retire until he gets seriously hurt, and that’s very sad.

    Fedor unfortunately will draw nothing in ppv buys simply because everybody hates M1 and coming off of 3 losses in a row it’s a very hard sell. It’s sad to see one of the greatest fighters ever fall so far from grace.

    Alvarez will reatin his title and he certainly would be great in the UFC. The deepest division in mma would be that much more intruiging with him in it.

    Last but not least, why not have the winner of Shogun vs Hendo fight Jones? If Evans is not available I say let the winner have a crack at him. I personally want to see what Shogun vs Bones would look like if Shogun goes in healthy.

    For the record I believe he’s healthy now and I also believe he’ll be the 1st guy to ever ko Hendo, if that actually happens why not give him a shot? Plus there’s no guarantee the title will be in Bones hands still as Machida does have the tools to pull off the upset, however unlikely as it appears.

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  • Dufresne says:

    - Yes. edub pretty much nailed everything I was gonna say on this one.

    – Nope. I guess the blame for not promoting falls on Zuffa these days, but honestly I don’t remember much promotion for any of the other Challenger Series events either. Which is a shame because the fights usually end up being pretty entertaining.

    – No, even though he should. He may still be healthy, but he has not been the same fighter since Cro Cop bounced his shin off Wandy’s head. I’m sure following that KO loss with the KO from Henderson didn’t help matters at all, but between those two KO’s it seems like Wandy’s chin is completely gone.

    – No. And again edub covered everyone of my points.

    – Under. Too much competition + terrible time slot + no real promotion of the event = no one buying it.

    – Yes. I don’t think Alvarez is the unstoppable force he’s sometimes made out to be, but he is a damn good fighter and I think he’ll prove to be more than Chandler can handle. I think Alvarez is right on the border of top 5 LWs in the world right now, and if it wasn’t such a ridiculously stacked division he’d easily be top 3.

    If/When Alvarez ends up in the UFC I see him beating most guys but I can see him having trouble with Edgar, Henderson, Guillard (if Guillard shows up in the same form he did against Dunham), and possibly even Diaz due to his unorthodox boxing and slick BJJ off his back. I think he’d match up pretty well with Maynard though. They’re both strong wrestlers, Maynard is probably the better wrestler but Alvarez has better BJJ, and both are decent strikers with technique going to Alvarez and power again going to Maynard. I think Alvarez’s wrestling would be enough to fend off the takedown long enough to land a couple well placed shots that will either put Maynard down or they’ll make him back off the striking and try to force the takedown which will get him submitted or TKO’d.

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  • Dufresne says:

    I think a focused Melvin Guillard would have eddie’s #.

    IMO a focused Guillard can beat anybody in the world. The problem is (and has always been throughout his entire career) is Melvin has mental lapses. The fight would be a great style match up taking Melvin’s explosiveness and putting it against Eddie’s technical brilliance.

    I agree. Guillard is a phenomenal athlete and when he’s cranking on all cylinders and focused he’s a terrifying force. Dana said it best, “Melvin Guillard is his own worst enemy.”

    Oh and Cerrone and him would be a war…..Cerrone is gonna shock alot of people and fight for gold in 2012….if he gets by Nate.

    I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks Cerrone is an overlooked monster. The guy always shows up to fight, and he’s damn good at it. He’s finished 14 of his 17 wins and if you just look at his record you’ll think he’s a submission wizard. In reality at least half of his 13 submission victories were set up by his nasty Muay Thai. The only problem he’s got is his takedown defense which leaves him vulnerable to a lot of the top LW’s these days, but he’s been making huge progress in that area over the last few years. Give him another year or so at Jackson’s and he’ll be a true contender.

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  • Personally Duf I cant believe more people arent really diggin Cerrone….after Miller, Siver had the best streak going at LW and Cerrone beat him at his own game cleanly and with extreme prejudice.
    I would love to see Cerrone and Guillard throw down but as they’re both Jackson guys it’ll never happen, but I still dont see Melvin as the monster he’s made out to be. Sure he has some wins in impressive fashion but he doesnt have them over great guys. Even though he won his last fight and Melvin lost his I think pettis vs. Guillard would be a sweet match up.
    Eddie Alvarez is purely brilliant now and like Condit, Diaz and alot of other guys comin from Other orgs, he’s not just beating people he’s DOMINATING them. Im really interested to see him fight some top tier competition but for now I guess we just have to wait.

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  • MCM says:

    Thumbs up superdave. You, me and Dana White, thought the WEC had some of the best LW’s in the world and now we’re finally being proven right. Cerrone will fight for, or be next in line for the belt by the end of 2012.

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  • Sykotick says:

    I’m not drinking this Alvarez is a top 5 LW koolaid. Is he a good fighter?? Yes, top 10?? In the deepest division in the sport?? Ehh, MAYBE, is he top 5?? Oh hell no!
    Who is his biggest win?? Huerta? Didn’t Huerta drop 2-3 straight in the UFC, then win one or two in bellator, then lose before fighting Eddie? Not a big win.
    His biggest fight has been against Aoki (a not top 10er) and he lost, so how is he top 10? Or even top 5?!
    Jeez, next people will ne saying Hector Lombard is a top 10 guy

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  • edub says:

    Sycotick- Alvarez’s best win is Kawajiri when he was looked at as a top 5 lw in the world. He just got a huge contract from Bellator when they started up so he hasn’t fought anybody highly ranked since then. His win over Huerta was after he lost to Curran so he had already started his slide.

    He lost to Aoki when he was universally the second best LW in the world, and yes Aoki should still be a top 10 LW (top 5 IMO).

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  • Creature says:

    I think Cain earns a shot in late 2012.

    Yes i knew about the challengers but prolly wont be watching it.

    Honestly i think he might retire if he gets KOd again, if not he will go over to Dream to have one or two more fights back in Japan then retire.

    If Shogun wins, even if by devastation i dont think he gets it. Hendo wins, if he gets a quick finish or if the fight is a good fight and he gets the finish then yes i think he should get a shot.

    I think the Fedor PPV will be a flop.

    I think Eddie retains it, IMO he is the best non Zuffa LW out there. With that said i dont see him beating Edgar, Maynard, Bendo, Melendez, or Cerrone. I would like to see Eddie fight Jim Miller, Guillard, Pettis, or even Guida before i consider him top 5.

    Ive been saying Bendo is a top 5 guy for a while now, I think Cerrone is now as well. The WEC boys are shocking many and running through the UFC bottomless pit of top guys at LW lol.

    Side not, i think Cerrone has the best striking in the LW division and IMO borderline top 5 BJJ. I think we see Bendo/Cerrone 3 around the summer next year for the UFC title. At the rate hes improving per fight, i see him taking this time. Also think he would out strike Eddie and would stifle his wrestling/BJJ game enough to win a clear cut UD.

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  • edub says:

    The hype for WEC guys on this site truly astounds me sometimes.

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  • edub- I dont see why, Two of the top 3 LWs from WEC are now in the top 5 in the UFC One of them is 4-0 in less than a year all but one by a finish and the other is 3-0 against a solid LW, The guy who held the best streak in the division, and another veteran who was on a hot streak.

    You bring up guys like Kawijirii who;s best wins are years behind him and were never great to begin with. Good wins sure but great no…and you bring up Aoki who was a badly ranked #2 lightweight by the fans being enthralled by his submission game but once again his and Crushers best win are both a younger Alvarez.
    My point is the top WEC LW’s have come into the UFC and owned the competition. They deserve the hype.

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  • edub says:

    The guys they beat were never top guys though. Siver was on a decent streak highlighted by a win over George Sotiropolous (who proceeded to get blasted out cold in his next fight), before that he got beat by Ross Pearson and barely escaped Matt Wiman. Clay Guida was on a decent streak after getting dominated by Kenny Florian, and his best win was over Pettis. Jim Miller had a good winstreak over who? The best guy in his 7 wins after Gray is Mark Bocek, and he probably shouldn’t have even got that decision. Who else, Charles Oliveira? The guy gets a win over Efrain Escudero and suddenly he’s a top guy after 3 fights (exaggeration I know).

    The point is they haven’t beaten “top” competion in the UFC. They’ve beaten mid level talent that were hyped up wayyy too much. There’s no reason to put them over Kenny Florian let alone Gray, Frankie, or Eddie.

    Kawajiri’s best wins in the past 2 years are Josh Thompson and JZ Calvacanti (two guys that are certainly on the level of any of the guys beaten by the trio from the WEC), and he’s had many top tier victories before that. Eddie has a win over him, and hasn’t lost since 2008. Sure he doesn’t have top tier wins since then, but he hasn’t lost since those top tier guys he’s fought either. He doesn’t belong above guys like Edgar, Gil, or Gray (Aoki is questionable). But he certainly belongs above Ben, Donald, and Anthony.

    Guys like Rogan have openly questioned if Eddie is the best LW in the world. While I won’t go that far, that idea should get recognition especially from a guy who is asked to push the companies’ agenda so much.

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  • edub says:

    Let me also be clear here, that I think all are also ever improving fighters that have still yet to hit their peak (if they continue on the upward path they are on now). I have Ben at #6 and Anthony at #8 on my personal rankings, with Cowboy barely missing the #10 spot.

    I don’t hate them, as it seems like when I breakdown their recent streaks. I just think certain guys in the world still belong ahead of them.

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  • Sykotick says:

    Edub, how do you bring up the fact that George Sot got blasted in his next fight, when a few years ago people were all over Fedor’s nuts saying Sylvia and Arlovski were great wins even tho they got blasted in their next fights respectively??
    Can’t have your cake and eat it too there bro,

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  • edub says:

    Who in the world said anything about Fedor, Sylvia, or Arlovski, bro?

    Besides, they’re completely different situations. Sylvia and Arlovski were both ranked highly in the historically weak HW division. Sotiropolous was on a good streak (kinda like the aforementioned Siver and Miller), but still had no high ranking and no top tier wins.

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  • MCM says:

    edub – How are you gonna say Eddies wins since his last loss are better than Cerrones or Bendos? At least two (IMO 3) of Donald’s fighters were top 15 and Ben knocked off two #1 contenders. What has Eddie done lately? Beaten Josh Neer? I agree that Eddie is a good fighter and should be in the UFC, but just like NIck Diaz, he hasn’t done anything to deserve the hype he gets. If he comes in and runs through the UFC ranks like Donald and Ben have (and I’m not saying he can’t), then let’s talk top 5.

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  • edub says:

    - I never said his wins were better than the wins Henderson or Cerrone got recently. I said he had them before and hasn’t lost since then ergo he still belongs ahead of both (and Pettis). What you maybe referring to is “Kawajiri’s best wins in the past 2 years are Josh Thompson and JZ Calvacanti (two guys that are certainly on the level of any of the guys beaten by the trio from the WEC),” And they are.

    – I don’t give a damn if anybody named Jim Miller, George Sotiropolous or Clay Guida were ever “#1 contenders” (saying that as a big fan of Guida), they have never been top tier. They all went on decent streaks because of the competition put in front of them was below elite level (Pettis was the best win by any, and for how good he can be, he is still not elite level, yet).

    – All Eddie has done lately is beat everybody put in front of him. There not on the level of UFC guys, but that’s the reason he isn’t higher than 5.

    -When one of them beats Kenny, BJ, Gray, or Frankie (or Gil/Eddie if they move over) I will consider them top tier. No time before that,

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  • edub says:

    BTW who in the world besides Dennis Siver was top 15 that Donald Cerrone beat?

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  • MCM says:

    Kenny Florian!? who the hell has Kenny ever beaten. His biggest win is Guida (whom you don’t consider top tier). Outside of that, it’s a bunch of mid-level and also rans.

    I also think you have to keep beating top competition to stay at the top, otherwise Josh Barnett would be ranked top 3.

    Varner was top 15 when Donald beat him, albeit barely. And IMO, Horodecki. But I’m biased for IFL fighters.

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  • edub says:

    Time period when they won is what counts, and no Guida isn’t the best person he’s beaten. That would be Stevenson who came off a title shot against Penn and a win over Tibau or Huerta who was on about a million fight win streak (which consisted of guys like Guida and Wiman). If he stayed at 155 he would be ahead of all three (unless they beat him).

    “Outside of that, it’s a bunch of mid-level and also rans.”
    Which is what the trio of WEC guys record consists of atm.

    Varner wasn’t top 15 win he beat him. And no, no, no, no, no Horodecki wasn’t even top 30 when he beat him. IFL bias or no.

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  • I get your point Edub but Josh Thompson is still only a so so fighter now more due to who he’s fighting than his actual skill, and Cavalcanti? Come on dude, He’s not on the level of a guida, cerrone, pettis, benson or bocek even.
    I hear what you’re saying about Miller Siver and Guida not beating TOP competition, but if you’re anything less than at least a low level top tier fighter(you know worst of the best) than you cant go onto 6-7-8 fight win streaks unless your fighting total cans.

    And by the way I entirely agree with you about the Oliveria hype….that kids good but everyone jumped on his nuts right after he beat Efrain….similar with Evan Dunham.
    And that’s also where my irritation with everyone’s fanboyhood of Melvin Guillard comes in his best win stands at Gleison Tibau(which you stated is possibly Millers best win if not Bocek)…and yet everyone said he should be getting a title shot.
    Either way….good discussion and Im stoked that LW is so deep worldwide that we can have debates like this.

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