The Era of Mixed Martial Entertainment Has Arrived

The UFC stamped a message loud and clear this week with the decision to forgo the spirit of competition in favor of spirited banter by awarding Chael Sonnen a shot at Jon Jones’ light heavyweight title. In summation, the company is now approaching Mixed Martial Arts as though it’s actually Mixed Martial Entertainment. Vince McMahon would be proud. Me? Not so much.

Sonnen’s unprecedented booking in a bout men far more deserving were overlooked for is a slap in the face of any fan or fighter who held out hope that the UFC favored performance above all else…other than performance in front of a microphone/camera, that is. Gone are the days where it truly matters if you are a streaking veteran, former champion, Muay Thai master, Golden Gloves prodigy, BJJ blackbelt, Olympic medalist, or NCAA All-American. Taking their place is the new breed of fighter – a man who may not always win in the end but can cut a promo like no other.

In the immortal words of Forrest Griffin, who had the following to say of Sonnen’s chance at Jones’ championship on UFC Tonight, “Why work your way to the top when you can talk your way to the top?”

Let’s be completely clear about the situation – Sonnen called Jones out repeatedly after stepping up on short notice as a replacement and being rejected, the UFC was desperate to try and spark some additional interest in the Ultimate Fighter franchise, “Bones” compromised his principles, and the whole thing will be marketed as giving people what they supposedly want. Equally obvious in the equation, Sonnen has no right jumping Dan Henderson, Alexander Gustafsson, Lyoto Machida, Mauricio Rua, or even Glover Teixeira if the UFC professes to care about the purity of sport like every other major league does.

The 27-12-1 Sonnen has never notched a victory in the UFC as a light heavyweight, has scored a single stoppage inside the Octagon in more than three years since re-joining the promotion, has a ten-inch reach disadvantage, is smaller in general, is one-dimensional in a department Jones is completely competent in, and also happens to be 2-2 in his last two tilts with both losses involving a finish including his most recent appearance in the cage. Realistically, Sonnen’s takedowns are not going to work against a much larger guy who has literally put on his backside a single time in his UFC career, and he lacks the power as well as overall technique to put Jones away while standing. Comparably, Jones is more athletic and polished in numerous disciplines, possessing a variety of ways to end his adversary’s evening.

And yet, based on his sometimes comical, sometimes cringe-worthy rants Sonnen has been given a crack at perhaps the most valuable prize in the game. This is a strap that’s been worn by the likes of Hall of Famers Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, and Randy Couture as well as some of the best in the game today, not an oversized beltbuckle with a changeable nameplate and spinner up front.

There’s nothing wrong with factoring marketability into matchmaking. Every sport has an entertainment component involved and that’s okay. But, it should never be the primary focus of the product being sold. Fans want to see the best quarterback trying to lead their team to glory, not a career back-up who hasn’t ever won the big game but “has the biggest arms, the greatest charm, and does the most harm”; they aren’t interested in it being the bottom of the ninth in the World Series with the guy who is “better than Sean Combs” and “better than John Holmes” up to bat unless he’s clutch. And Sonnen is most certainly not that. Just ask Anderson Silva or, for that matter, Demian Maia if you have any doubt.

When the dust finally settles, the two will face off on TUF, Sonnen will talk smack, Jones will try to do the same but fail more often than not, the eventual bout will lead to an entertaining but obvious victory for the supremely skilled 25-year old, and life will move on. The silver-tongued Sonnen’s elevation from a former middleweight coming off a defeat to #1 contender at light heavyweight is by no means the end of the world but rather a “fun fight” loads of folks will tune in for. It is, however, the end of the any innocence still remaining in the evolution of the UFC, and that, in my opinion, marks a somewhat sad day in MMA history.

PHOTO CREDIT – UFC

18 COMMENTS
  • soundspawn says:

    Wow, I had no idea the purity of the sport had been executed right before your eyes like that… I guess we should pick out your black dress and hire the bagpipers =P

    How was it so much better when Vitor stepped in against Jones? Did the sport not lose whatever illusion of integrity it had with that fight, but this is going too far? Was it because of short notice? Because Vitor held a LHW belt for one fight due to fluke injury? I’ve heard it all, and they are all just convenient excuses for someone who wants to forget how ridiculous the Belfort match up was (on paper) but wants to complain about something like this.

    Bottom line is the UFC needs to market Jones. He’s in the p4p discussions with many reputable writers and fans, but he has a dark cloud over him. The Ultimate Fighter can help by way of the cutting room, media consultants, etc. They believe they can turn Jones as a person back in to a positive. The problem is his arm is jacked up so once they fix his image they don’t want him to go out and get smashed by Hendo. They need a tune up fight for what they hope will be their bread maker, and what better than the man they had tapped a month ago to do exactly this, fight Jones in a match he has little chance winning.

    If you want to talk about the sport losing credibility, where is the article about how Vitor should should be the LHW champ right now. should have won by ref stoppage in the first due to armbar. See Mir Silvia/Nog2 for a pair of examples. Oh yeah, those were full on breaks so if we’re splitting hairs then also see Cantwell/Al-Hassan which was less damage than Jones took. Being too tough to tap should be punished, not rewarded, that’s going to be a huge problem in MMA as more people do it.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

  • G-DUB says:

    I tend to agree with your sentiments Brendhan. Fights like JBJ vs Belfort and Silva vs Bonnar are fun for the moment, but leave a true MMA fan feeling empty and a bit trashy afterwards. It’s a bit sad to me that the popularity of the UFC in the U.S. has clearly taken a turn for the worse in the past 2 years. However, it’s even sadder to see the UFC brass acknowledge the desperate need for more headlines and attention by setting up this fight. Sure …. I’ll watch the lead-up and I’ll be thoroughly entertained. I’m fairly certain that even the fight itself will have it’s memorable moment(s). However, on April 26th, I won’t be any more of a UFC fan and I imagine many of the hardcores will share my feeling of disillusionment. Ultimately, I think the UFC is bartering their long-term legitimacy for short-term gains. Time will tell how that works out for them.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  • Richard Stabone says:

    “How was it so much better when Vitor stepped in against Jones? Did the sport not lose whatever illusion of integrity it had with that fight, but this is going too far?”

    Timing.

    After Hendo went down with injury, the UFC tried to get a legitimate LHW contender to fight Jones but the well was dry. For one, Jones winning 5 title fights in a 13-month span from 2011-2012 has largely cleared out the top of the division. Beyond that, a guy like Machida wasn’t going to cut corners on what could be the last title shot he gets in his career, and apparently other contenders also balked at the opportunity to face Jones given the short notice.

    So the UFC’s options were very limited – keep Jones & the LHW belt on the shelf till a better matchup emerged, or force the issue with Belfort. If you were in the UFC’s position what would you have done differently? I didn’t like the Belfort matchup but I preferred it to having Jones & the LHW belt on the shelf for the better part of a year. Hell, even Chael getting the shot at that point would be been a little easier to stomach (although as flimsy as Belfort’s case for a title shot was, it trumped Chael’s).

    But now that it’s being orchestrated 6 months in advance?! Hendo is expected to be fully recovered by then. Machida would have no qualms about taking the fight with a full camp to prepare. A winner have emerged from Shogun-Gustafsson by the end of 2012. There are all sorts of legitimate (and marketable) options looking out to early 2013, but instead the UFC picked Chael Sonnen.

    The Belfort thing was dumb but the result of tight timing & a lack of options. This latest move with Chael is batshit crazy, ignoring other far more logical options in the name of entertainment. The UFC has officially sold out.

    “Bottom line is the UFC needs to market Jones. He’s in the p4p discussions with many reputable writers and fans, but he has a dark cloud over him. The Ultimate Fighter can help by way of the cutting room, media consultants, etc. They believe they can turn Jones as a person back in to a positive.”

    That’s all fine & good, but it shouldn’t necessitate bringing sideshow Chael into the mix. I’m guessing Hendo would have been willing to do another TUF run, particularly with a title shot hanging in the balance. And as far as repairing Jones’ PR image, this could have the opposite effect. Given the respective abilities when it comes to self-promotion, there’s a decent chance Chael will further drag Jones thru the mud as far as public perception is concerned. You really think JBJ comes away from the TUF season the winner in that category?

    “The problem is his arm is jacked up so once they fix his image they don’t want him to go out and get smashed by Hendo. They need a tune up fight for what they hope will be their bread maker, and what better than the man they had tapped a month ago to do exactly this, fight Jones in a match he has little chance winning.”

    Smashed by Hendo? The 42 yr old who’s coming off an injury himself? The logical choice for Jones’ next title defense remains Hendo (who also won’t be fighting till early 2013) but the UFC has gone in a completely different direction. It’s completely wacky.

    “If you want to talk about the sport losing credibility, where is the article about how Vitor should should be the LHW champ right now … Being too tough to tap should be punished, not rewarded, that’s going to be a huge problem in MMA as more people do it.”

    Not sure what you’re suggesting here. The ref should jump in and stop the action as soon as a potential arm bar is secured? Does that apply to other types of subs as well, or only the arm? I agree guys (or gals, Meisha) are stupid not to tap, but it’s their careers on the line.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

  • MCM says:

    Couldn’t agree more Brendhan. The UFC might as well start pulling LW up to WW and giving them title shots after losing fights. Or bring LHW’s out of retirement to take on HW champs. Or have LW’s move down to FW for title shots without ever having fought in at FW before. Or giving HW’s with a record of 1-1 titles shots. Or give MW’s title fights in LHW for no fucking reason what so ever.
    Oh wait. The UFC has been doing that their entire existence. This is nothing new. Is it bullshit? Sure it is, but it’s not the end of MMA. In fact, it could be argued that it’s “business as usual” for the #1 MMA brand in the world.
    And it’s not as if the UFC is the only org that does this. Rogers gets a title shot after getting KTFO by Fedor, Kimbo Slice headlines cards after being the internets best Bum Fighter, and Aoki gets KO’d twice and retains his title both times. The sport has always been run this way, and until all the orgs can get together and agree upon a single major sanctioning body, it always will.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Given the circumstances of how the UFC is orchestrating this thing, I cannot just lump this in with other instances of wonky match-making we’ve seen in MMA over the years.

    We’re talking about the premier MMA organization on the planet, with a network TV deal worth nearly a billion dollars, with several months to plan a title fight, in a division with multiple legitimate contenders. And they’re completely selling out with an obnoxious self-promoter that the fans just can’t ignore.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

  • Lord Faust says:

    Possible scenarios:

    – a clique of top UFC fighters raid a Bellator event on live television.
    – Dana White challenges a fighter to a physical contest (has already happened)
    – Dana feuds with his own employees and their managers (see: Jones, Nelson, Jackson)
    – Bones sells Jon 3:16 shirts and videotapes himself throwing his belt off a bridge into the river
    – Vince Russo is hired to write TUF storylines

    I’ll stop.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  • Mad_Hatter_XX says:

    Someone explain how this is all that different than these two fighting last month?

    Purity of the sport? Where is this purity you speak of? We want to throw it back old school and watch Severn and Gracie jockey for position while not doing much for 25 minutes on the ground? Flyweights get booed while busting their asses. Tell me how many want to see 25 minutes of hugging on the ground? That IS old school and PURE, right?

    Maybe Sonnen doesn’t deserve what he gets and if everyone is so up in arms about it: Boycott with your wallet.

    Don’t buy the PPV , refuse to watch that season of TUF. Ignore UFC for a while.

    Are there more deserving challengers? Prolly. Is it the end of MMA as we know it? Not likely.

    Maybe you would prefer fights like boxing? Someone says this guy is #1 because the organization is in bed with the promoters and we are forced to watch challengers barely fit to be sparring partners in major title fights on a regular basis.

    Maybe we could also have the two top fighters in every division refuse to fight each other because their managers don’t like each other or they would rather fight cans for a guaranteed win then have to fight top opposition.

    I think more people WANT to see this fight then don’t and I think the PPV numbers will show that in the long run.

    The whole the sky is falling argument seems a bit silly. Don’t like it? Don’t watch.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  • Screenplaya says:

    What seems clear is that this is a move to appease Fox. They want a matchup to draw in the drooling masses to watch the TUF show, which is tanking, but likely important to Fuel network.

    Also, it gives Bones a chance to heal. And, probably most importantly, it draws attention away from the fact that Bones is most definitely not the best 205er in the world now. Anyone who would make Jones a favorite in a matchup with Anderson Silva, is kidding themself.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  • MCM says:

    Still loving it Screenplaya. And I totally agree with you Mad_Hatter.

    As for the “multiple challenger” argument…..who are they?

    Dan Henderson? Yeah sure, he’s the #1 contender, but he launched a snafu that cancelled the first event in UFC history, so he gets punished a little.

    Machida? Lyoto is one fight removed from being put to sleep by Jones and he’s 2-3 in his last 5. Folks bitch about the “legitimacy” of the belt, but Lyoto got a shot going 1-2 with the win being over an over the hill HOF’r. Now he’s supposed to get a second chance after beating a guy that never made it passed “prospect”?

    Gustafsson? I think he’s ready for a title shot, but more than half the rest of the MMA world (including a ton of folks on this site) think he needs one more win before getting a shot. Well, Alex is already booked for a fight, and should he win, will actually be in a great spot to challenge for the title since his fight is in Dec, and Jones/Sonnen will be at the beginning of 2013.

    Rashad? He just lost to Jones and nothing in his performance requires an rematch.

    Shogun? Hasn’t put together a win streak in the UFC since back to back wins over Mark Coleman and Chuck Liddel in 09.

    Glover? Glover is a good fight but he doesn’t have the name value in the UFC and with Bones being laid up for a few months with his arm, it makes more sense to give Glover another high value fight.

    So who’s left? Is the fact that Chael is getting a title shot without ever having fought in the UFC LHW division and coming off a loss at MW complete bullshit? Absolutely. But almost EVERY division has had a period where unworthy challengers that have been given title shots. HW had the return of Randy after losing to Chuck and then it had Brock. MW had the Leites, Maia, Cote era. WW had a guy that couldn’t hack it in the UFC win TUF and get a title shot (we all loved season 4, and it was just as crazy as this.) and Hardy. Now it’s the LHW’s turn.

    These two should have fought at 151 when it made sense because Sonnen was coming into save the card. Jones could have fought him then and refused to put the belt on the line or fought at a 210 catchweight and it would have been great. And he made a stupid move by not doing it. Going on TUF and fighting him afterwards is actually a smart move by Jones IMO. One it keeps him in the spotlight while he heels up. Two, I don’t care what GJ or anyone else says, it’s an easy fight after an extended layoff. and Three, it’s going to do really good numbers if Chael can keep the “Chael show” going for 13 weeks, and there’s not such thing as bad publicity.
    Chael is an entertaining talker, and we get to hear him rip a guy every week for two months. Jones is an entertaining fighter and we get to see him smash a guy that ripped him apart every week for two months. Jones isn’t in the twilight of his career, he’s not on the last fight of his contract and he is out with an injury anyway. So where’s the harm?

    Ignore the so called legitimacy of the title bullshit and just enjoy this for what it is. Two fighters doing what they do best, Chael insulting people and Jones whopping them.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  • Richard Stabone says:

    As has been the case for quite a while, Hendo is the obvious next challenger to Jones’ belt. There are ways for Uncle Dana to punish him for his role in the UFC 151 ordeal without dicking around with the legitimacy of the LHW belt.

    Both Hendo & Jones are coming off injuries, unable to compete in 2012, which would have set things up perfectly for the first half of 2013.

    But instead we’re witnessing the UFC sell out. And in the meantime, if Hendo loses to Machida then we as fans will be robbed of the Jones-Hendo matchup altogether, a fight that would not only pit the champ vs. the true top contender, but also carries historical significance…established legend & greatest American mixed artial artist vs. the young gun trying to knock him off that pedestal to claim the spot for himself.

    So as usual, the UFC really thought things thru and pulled whatever strings necessary to deliver for the fans *and* protect the legitimacy of the sport. Oh wait, no they didn’t. They’ve tossed an obnoxious self-promoter into a fight competing for the championship belt in a division he’s never won a fight, while simultaneously jeopordizing the Jones vs. Hendo matchup.

    Wonderful.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  • Mad_Hatter_XX says:

    UFC selling out? It has ALWAYS been about money. When wasn’t it about the bottom line?

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  • AlphaOmega says:

    Sadly it’s a business, and from a business standpoint, this makes sense. People can talk about how it’s not pure or anything, but if you want that then I guess we could always go back to MMA being once or twice a year and watching on a little black box, with there being maybe 20 fighters total..that sounds fun.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  • Richard Stabone says:

    At the end of the day, of course it’s about money. Not just for the UFC but any other professional sports league as well. But there’s also the small issue of maintaining a reasonable amount of legitimacy. G-DUB hit the nail on the head with his comment above:

    “Ultimately, I think the UFC is bartering their long-term legitimacy for short-term gains. Time will tell how that works out for them.”

    So we can say it’s all about money, but to pretend that’s all that matters would be a pretty sh*tty perspective from which to make all business decisions.

    The NFL’s reality show on HBO, Hard Knocks, has seen a ratings decline. This year they had trouble finding one of their big name teams to sign up and ended up with the crappy Miami Dolphins. If they’d been able to convice a big ticket team (the Jets w/ Tebow, the Cowboys with their ever-present huge fanbase, or the Broncos w/ Peyton Manning coming back) to sign up for the gig, that would have absolutely improved ratings and brought in more money. Money!!! So why not offer a team a guaranteed spot in the playoffs in exchange for doing the reality show? By handing them a spot in the playoffs the NFL would also guarantee big-time ratings for at least one playoff game with that team in the mix. Money!!! That team would still have the opportunity to improve their playoff seeding by virture of their record, so there’d be plenty of incentive to play out the season in usual competitive form. Do ya think teams would jump at that offer? Hell yeah they would. And again, it would guarantee better ratings. Money!!!

    So why doesn’t the NFL do it?? Well, because it would be a GD joke, cheapening the legitimacy of the sport and the process by which teams compete for a championship.

    Back to the UFC, if it wasn’t for their reality show TUF, there’s simply no way Chael Sonnen would be tabbed as the next challenger for the LHW belt. With 6 months to plan, it would be nuts to throw Chael into a LHW title fight without having won a single fight in the division. Here’s a recent example that is evidence of why I’m so sure about this…

    The Nick Diaz camp has been expressing interest in fighting Anderson Silva for a while now, which fight fans would certainly be interested in watching. Nick is widely regarded as a top-ranked WW contender, and is coming off a loss in a (interim) title fight. So he’d be moving up a weight class, to a division he’s never won a fight in the UFC, to take on the champion.

    Does that scenario sound a little bit familiar? How did Dana White respond when this idea came up

    “I know that sounds fun–‘Yeah! throw Nick Diaz in there!’–if you really look at the thing, Nick Diaz just lost at 170, so that gives him the opportunity to move up to 185 and fight for the title? In what [expletive] universe does that make sense?”

    Gee whiz… I dunno, Dana.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  • MCM says:

    Does it make any less sense than…
    “Hey Dana, let’s take a bunch of mid level guys that couldn’t really cut it in the UFC, put them on TUF, and let them fight it out. The winner will actually jump the line of every top 10-15 ranked fighter out there and get shot at UFC gold.”
    or
    “Hey Dana, I know the LHW champ needs a body so let’s give him a guy that hasn’t beaten a top 10 LHW in 8 YEARS! a shot at that belt.”

    Neither one of these events damaged the sport (TUF 4 may have actually helped it) so why get all bent out of shape over another oddball twist? At what point did you think the UFC held any legitimacy in their belts?

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  • Rece Rock says:

    UFC was an athletic spectacle/ sports entertainment in its begining stages…

    One night Open weight tourneys… no-holds-barred combat/ “no-rules” … Art Jimmerson fighting with one boxing glove on…strikes to the groin…most fights had to end by knockout or submission… no judges…some fights had no rounds just time limits…

    Sounds less like sport and more like entertainment.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  • Richard Stabone says:

    @MCM – Clearly there have been previous manauevers that were all sorts of gimmicky, but this one takes the cake as far as I’m concerned. And it seems to be garnering more mainstream attention/questioning/backlash than the other instances you’re pointing back to, which is really what matters here, right? I mean, if ratings are all that matter on the positive side of the equation, then isn’t the amount of negative vibes w/ public perception all that matters on the other side?

    I’ve already commented plenty on the Belfort thing. It was a silly matchup, but with Hendo’s injury and thericky timing of things, it came down to forcing the issue with Vitor or keeping Jones & the LHW belt on the shelf for the better part of the year. Which is the lesser of evils? When push came to shove I understand why the UFC did what they did and am willing to cut them some slack. (Although I think they could have, and probably should have, offered enough $$ to a legitimate contender to accept the UFC 152 fight…but that’s not how the UFC rolls…there’s no give & take. “Here’s what we’re offering and you either accept it or deal with the consequences.”)

    With the TUF 4 thing, we’re going back quite a ways. With the rapid ascenscion/evolution of MMA to where it’s at today, with the UFC as the premier MMA organization as others continue to fall by the wayside, with growing mainstream attention, and a nearly billion dollar TV deal in place giving it a hell of a foundation to work from… to put this plan together this far in advance, with the GD reality show as the key driving force behind it, it’s just nutty on a level above anything that’s happened previously, and potentially more damaging….in my opinion, of course.

    But anyway…the sky aint falling on MMA. I’ll watch the reality show stuff, I’ll watch Jones beat up Chael. To your point, there have been corners cut in the past numerous times, selling out or whatever we want to call it, and the sport has managed to grow. But I’d like to think the UFC has reached a point where it has enough equity to avoid that garbage. I believe the short-sighted money grab stuff will eventually need to be better balanced with long-term legitimacy if the UFC truly wants to put itself alongside the mainstream big boy leagues.

    As it stands, from my view the UFC is settling into their own niche somewhere between the legitimate mainstream leagues (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL) and WWE territory. Doesn’t mean they can’t survive in that space & make plenty of money. In fact, there seems to be plenty of appetite among the overall MMA fanbase for the UFC to stay right in that middle territory, where things aren’t as formal as the big boy leagues and their unions & labor disputes & more rigid structure potentially spoiling some of the fun at times. Let DW & Co. have a longer leash to do some crazy sh*t every once in a while. Keep that door open for the fans to be able to bark loud enough to sway things in a certain direction that the “rules” wouldn’t otherwise dictate. I find it frustrating & annoying at times, but I will also admit it keeps things less predictable and for that reason more interesting. Gives us something to argue about.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  • Richard Stabone says:

    I’ll take a step back and acknowledge the sky aint falling on MMA. I’ll watch the reality show stuff, I’ll watch Jones beat up Chael. To MCM’s point, there have been corners cut in the past numerous times, selling out or whatever we want to call it, and the sport has managed to grow. I would just like to think that–with a growing fanbase, growing mainstream attention, a nearly billion dollar TV deal in place, etc.–the UFC has reached a point where it has enough equity built up it doesn’t need to continue to make the desperate moves. I believe the short-sighted money grab stuff will eventually need to be better balanced with long-term legitimacy if the UFC truly wants to put itself alongside the mainstream big boy leagues.

    From my view, the UFC is settling into their own niche somewhere between the legitimate mainstream leagues (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL) and WWE territory. Doesn’t mean they can’t survive in that space & make plenty of money. In fact, there seems to be plenty of appetite among the overall MMA fanbase for the UFC to stay right in that middle territory, where things aren’t as formal as the big boy leagues and their unions & labor disputes & more rigid structure potentially spoiling some of the fun at times. Let DW & Co. have a longer leash to do some crazy sh*t every once in a while. Keep that door open for the fans to be able to bark loud enough to sway things in a certain direction that the “rules” wouldn’t otherwise dictate. I find it frustrating & annoying at times, but I will also admit it keeps things less predictable and for that reason more interesting. Gives us something to talk/argue about.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Oops…basically a double post…I tried to chop down the 1st one to remove some of my rambling.

    Agree or Disagree: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

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